Death, Acceptance and Buddhism with Jill McClennen

Jill

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[00:00:00] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Hello, and welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm your host, Ashley, and I'm your guide on your journey to the magical, mystical, and everything in between. On today's episode, we're going to talk all about Buddhism, and the origin story of its very famous founder.

[00:00:22] So I hope everyone's having an absolutely wonderful week, and if not, I hope it gets better soon. Today we have an absolutely fantastic guest. Jill McLennan is a certified Deaf doula, brief coach, and the host of Seeing Deaf Clearly podcast.

[00:00:36] Jill, how are you going? How are you doing? Where are you going? I don't know.

[00:00:41] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Not going anywhere right now. And I'm doing very well. Thank you. We actually did just get back from seeing the total eclipse, which was pretty amazing. So I just got back from a trip.

[00:00:54] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Oh, awesome. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that was pretty cool. I didn't have the glasses, but people [00:01:00] at my job did. So like we all took turns with the three pairs of glasses, rotate them around the office.

[00:01:07] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah.

[00:01:08] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Very cool. Cool. Did you go like up north this year?

[00:01:12] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: We actually went to a small town outside of Cleveland where my Mother in law's friend lives so she was like, you could just come sit in my backyard and I'd never been to Cleveland So we went into the city and we did some hiking and it was beautiful But and then we got to see the eclipse it was clear and it I mean it was magical It's just like all of a sudden you're like, it's really dark out and the birds started getting really weird They were like flying around and making all these weird noises And then you could take your glasses off when it's a total eclipse or

[00:01:47] full eclipse, whatever you call it. And then there's this like golden ring in the sky where the sun used to be. Like, it's just amazing. So it was cool. And now we're already talking about going to Spain in 20, [00:02:00] 27 to see the one there

[00:02:01] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: gosh, that's so,

[00:02:02] cool.

[00:02:03] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah,

[00:02:03] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah, the eclipse had everybody very excited. I was excited too, even though I was like, we probably won't be able to completely see it, but it's just exciting to see something like that in your life.

[00:02:13] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: totally.

[00:02:14] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: I know. Oh, I'm so sorry. We all do. Oh, God. Okay. Jill I wanted to ask you, how did you, because you are a certified death doula and grief coach, how did you become a certified death doula and grief coach?

[00:02:30] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: So I lived in California, and this was in 2006. I moved back to New Jersey to live with my grandmother who was turning 90 and when. Like it was maybe two weeks after we moved home. She was like, I found this weird lump in my shoulder and we went and we got it checked out. Turns out it was cancer. A really rare cancer, especially in people her age.

[00:02:56] The whole thing was just weird. But over the next four years [00:03:00] we did, surgeries and radiation and all these like things with her. And then eventually it got to the point where she was 94 and they were like, look, nothing else we could do. We're putting her on hospice, who's their main caregiver.

[00:03:13] I was like, Oh, that's me.

[00:03:14] Cause I lived with her. It was like, all right, so this is cool. I thought she was just going to sleep a lot. Cause that's what in movies. And that was not the reality. I am so grateful for the hospice nurses that came in because man, that first night that I was with her and she was up all night and she was talking to people that weren't there and she didn't know who I was.

[00:03:35] She thought I was somebody else, like the whole thing was just like, what's happening to me? And the hospice nurses were like, okay, totally normal, totally natural. You're all good. I promise. And they were amazing. And they got me through the next three weeks until she died. And even right after that, I said to my husband, I think I want to go back to school to be a hospice nurse.

[00:03:56] I owned a bakery at the time we had a six month old baby was not [00:04:00] good timing, right? It was just like life was still happening. We eventually closed our bakery. We had a second child. We moved again. Life just kept happening. And the older I got, I worked in a kitchen.

[00:04:13] I'd been in a kitchen since I was 16. I was getting close to 40 and I was like, I'm not sure I could do this for another 25 years. If I could even retire at 65, like I just don't know if I could do this. And so I was already thinking like what is it that I want to do? And I heard somebody on a podcast say they were a death doula and I was just like, Oh, that's it.

[00:04:35] That's it right there. That's what I need to do. But, again, being almost 40 and I'm thinking, are you crazy? What are you doing? And I just kept thinking about it. And then I'm like just look into it, see what's out there. So I started following some death rulers on Instagram and watching what they did and reached out to a couple just to see what they had to say, started looking at an online program and I thought I had two kids, [00:05:00] I had Two jobs.

[00:05:01] I was teaching at a nonprofit in Camden, a job training program. I was teaching at a college a night baking class. Life was just very busy. So I thought it was going to take me probably five or six years anyway to get this done. And this was January of 2020. So by March of 2020

[00:05:20] lot of time on my hands.

[00:05:21] It was like you can't teach baking from home. We were trying, but it was not realistic. So I just really dove in and I did an online college training and I had reached out to a death doula in California who she was like I meant to mentor people in person. I'll answer some questions. And so then when like life shut down, she was like we could give it a try. Like I can't work with people in person anyway. So I ended up doing a mentorship with her, who's, her name's also Jill.

[00:05:52] And so I ended up getting that one on one like conversation and questions and education.

[00:05:59] And then I [00:06:00] did just like this online thing. And yeah, by July of 2020, I was like All my training's done, my website's up, now what do I do? And, the last four years have been challenging. I love this work. I know that right now the biggest part of the work is just educating people on the fact that we even exist.

[00:06:21] Death rulers are a thing. We're here to help you, but people still don't know that. So I'm certainly not getting a ton of paid clients right now. But I'm starting to find little pockets of, I don't know, income from different things. So overall, I can't complain. I volunteer now at two different hospitals, which I'm finding.

[00:06:43] I love being in hospitals and I love the work. I really know that it's needed and I know that more and more people will do it. It's just right now, if people are trying to make a full time business out of it. It's a little bit difficult, but [00:07:00] that's all right. We're hanging in right for the long haul.

[00:07:02] It's, this is not a quick money making scheme by any means, but I also had to get realistic and be like, but I do need to make an income to support my family.

[00:07:12] So I still teach part time. I read tarot cards part time. I do work for a law office now. It was one of the first law offices that were like, this death doula thing sounds really Awesome.

[00:07:22] I think it would be really helpful for our clients because it's an elder care law office and so they do a lot of planning and things. But even people that are getting the services as part of what they're already paying for are still like, wait, you want to talk to me about death? I don't know. And I'm like, yes I do.

[00:07:41] Cause we're all going to die one day.

[00:07:43] So let's talk about it, right?

[00:07:45] So yeah, so that's the quick soapbox of like here I am This is what I do and everybody needs to use a death rule. Oh, so please start hiring us

[00:07:54] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yes. . I love that. And it's true. Everyone does need a deaf doula. I think. [00:08:00] definitely something that like, same with me. I didn't hear about it until maybe two, two years ago, two, three years ago. It was the first time I really heard a deaf doula mentioned ever in life. And I was also like, Oh my God, this is so interesting.

[00:08:16] Cause even as a nurse, I was a hospice nurse. I did love being a hospice nurse, but , I really. Didn't like that company, but the politics of medicare and they need to do this and they need to have this and it's That's not what I really wanted to do.

[00:08:35] Like I just wanted to Work with people and help them face the second biggest, event in their life like, so Yeah, I totally get it and it's so people don't Realize how helpful it is yet. I feel but I feel like it's coming up. People are hearing about death doulas more. And they should, it's a service.

[00:08:56] So of course people should honestly, like people should get paid for [00:09:00] it. It's a super helpful service and their death doulas do so many different things. Like you can do planning. You can, it's not just like planning your death. It could be like, you're working for a law office, people figuring out where they want their shit to go.

[00:09:14] Who they want their shit to go to cleaning out their houses, deciding who they want around them when they're dying. All that kind of stuff is super important. And people don't realize that until they're slapped in the face with it. And that's the hardest part when you're in the throes of grief and trying to figure out how you're going to deal with something.

[00:09:31] No one wants to make all these decisions.

[00:09:33] It's much easier to make them when you are still of sound mind and you can emotionally handle it. Than when you know you're going through it. So we're both on our death doula soapbox here. That's

[00:09:45] no problem.

[00:09:48] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah, It is something that the more that we talk about it the more that people will understand cuz that is a lot of it And I understand that too

[00:09:56] people are like wait, what do you do? And it's hard to [00:10:00] explain something if you haven't experienced it yourself. And so I just recently went through the death of my aunt and my mom happened to be at the hospital with me.

[00:10:09] One of the days when I was there and I was talking to the doctors and I was like, talking to the nurses and I was like doing all this stuff. And afterwards she was like, Oh, I really didn't understand what you did. But now that I see. it makes more sense.

[00:10:23] And I

[00:10:23] was like, yeah, no, exactly. Like it's, it is hard to explain something that most people haven't really experienced yet. The more that people use a death doula, then they're going to tell their friends. It's just like birth doulas, right? Like when I had my son 13 years ago, I, none of my friends were using birth doulas heard on the fringe a little bit, something about these people. But I didn't know about them.

[00:10:45] Now I know probably five easily off the top of my head. I feel like almost everybody I talked to uses one. And so now when their friends are having babies, they're like, you have to use a birth doula. So even if the friend doesn't understand yet, [00:11:00] What the birth tool is going to do their, loved ones saying you need to use this person.

[00:11:05] It's going to be helpful. They're like, okay, cool. Then I'll use one. Even if I still don't get it. And that's where death tool is. We'll get eventually. I'm positive.

[00:11:13] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: 100%. I agree. And the same thing with birth doulas, I remember like people used to think okay, first of all, this happened to me. I did a little talk at like a senior center about like death doulas. And people, most people in the room were very receptive to it, and they were super cool about it.

[00:11:31] There was one lady who was like, very mad, and I don't know why. But she was like, very annoyed with me. And then she's first she came up to me, she's First of all, I thought you were one of those crackpot birth doulas. And I was like,

[00:11:46] she's I'm a real nurse. And I was like, Oh okay.

[00:11:49] But I want and of course, like I'm in a public place, I'm not going to start schooling this woman, this 70 year old lady who's screaming at me, but I was just I wanted to be , first of all, birth doulas never said they were [00:12:00] nurses. They're just. doulas. Like it's a different thing.

[00:12:02] She's but now you're talking about dying. And she's so you don't give medications. I was like, no. And in this talk, I think I said I was a nurse, but I said, when I'm a, when I work as a deaf doula, I don't work in a nursing capacity. I just do doula stuff. So she was just so irritated. She's I don't understand.

[00:12:18] Meanwhile, I had given an hour presentation with like slides,

[00:12:25] slides. I made like little information, like flyers. She's I don't get it. I was like, that's okay.

[00:12:32] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: You don't want to get it. Obviously.

[00:12:34] Yeah.

[00:12:35] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: was like, I never heard of it. So it doesn't exist, which I was like, okay I don't want to argue with you about this. Yeah.

[00:12:42] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah, and that's it. Some people, and that's one of the things that I found interacting with hospices is I was surprised. Some people, they're like straight up angry with

[00:12:51] me. When I'm like, Oh, I'm a death duelist. We don't use death duelists. And I'm like, okay, cool. Thanks for the [00:13:00] info.

[00:13:00] And at this point, honestly, Again, I love hospice. Hospice has its place for sure. I personally, I don't think I would ever want to work for a hospice for a variety of reasons. Some of it is I hear the politics and the the way that Medicaid has to get paid and the hours and like all that stuff, right?

[00:13:19] I don't want to get mixed up in that. But also now that I've started volunteering at a hospital, I'm really enjoying talking with people that are earlier. in the stage of whatever it is they're going through. They might not be dying right now, but if they're going through these cancer treatments or they just got the diagnosis or the doctor just said to them, by the way, we can't, we can't continue the treatments.

[00:13:44] They're not working anymore. I want to talk to those people. Those are the people that I want to sit with. And I want to, I talked with somebody today at the hospital that kind of said something along the lines of, I am more prepared to die than I am to keep living. [00:14:00] And that probably sounds weird, right?

[00:14:01] And I was like, that doesn't sound weird at all. You've been through a lot over the last couple of years. You're in pain. You're not comfortable. They're saying that, that a lot of the things they're going to do is not really going to help. It might slow it down, but it's not going to cure you.

[00:14:16] So it doesn't sound weird. And I think they just needed to have somebody be like, Oh, sure. That doesn't sound weird where a lot of other people would be like, no, you need to keep living,

[00:14:26] keep fighting, maybe not. They don't want to fight anymore. They're tired of fighting. And so I find that I actually really like working in the hospital, even though it is hard.

[00:14:37] Like I have a couple of people that I've worked with that are younger than me. And they're dying, right? That is definitely a little bit of a struggle when I walk into a room and somebody's 37 and they're dying from ovarian cancer or whatever it is. And I'm like, oh, all right, but that's 1 of the things where Buddhism comes in really well with me and my. [00:15:00] Personal practice of, meditation and mindfulness and just this idea of not getting attached to any of it, including life. And even though it seems 37 is too young, that's the path that they're on. And it doesn't mean it's going to be my path. Pretending it's not going to be my path isn't going to keep me safe either.

[00:15:20] So like the practice that I have definitely has helped me in the work that I'm doing now with people. Yeah.

[00:15:28] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: That's so true and it's and I know we talked about this too, like when I was on your podcast Like it's so sometimes difficult to talk to people about All this stuff because people, they get yeah, but it's sad. And like, how dare you talk like it's not sad, but, and okay. So also I had taught a class about like mythology and death and in different practices around the world.

[00:15:52] And. Our ancestors, no matter where you're from in the world had such a closer relation to death because it was all [00:16:00] around them, a thousand years ago, there were no antibiotics. There was no IV meds. If somebody got like the flu, there's like a 50, 50 chance you're going to die. That's just how it was.

[00:16:11] Even up to the early 1900s, still I think it was a lot of women not just women, a lot of families didn't name children until they were like one because they were like we don't know if he's gonna make it. So we don't talk about attachments. They're like, we don't want to get, we don't want to like this kid too much, yeah, but it's like Now, which it's and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but we are so obsessed with like wellness and not, I'm not talking about like mental wellness, which is like super important. I'm talking about like physical wellness. Like we are striving so to live so long and do this.

[00:16:46] To now it's become almost a thing that people are so fearful of the fact that they have to die Because we're so detached from it when somebody dies. They usually at least in the west they get taken to a funeral home. We do not see the [00:17:00] body. We do not deal with it Maybe you go to awake you see it for two or three hours.

[00:17:04] It's gone that's our relationship to death before it was like people were dying in the house with Their family had to tend to them. So like they had to grieve along with the fact that this person is dying actively right now with them and it also was more of a community problem.

[00:17:21] It wasn't just the family was dealing with it. Usually the whole community was just the way you think about two generations ago. People, your family, people, your family got tons of food, right? People brought over food. People came to the house for weeks. People come to just sit with so and oh, how you doing?

[00:17:39] What's going on? People watching the kids for you because they know that you're breathing. Like we now are so individualistic and so obsessed with like living, which again, isn't necessarily bad, but it's like. We're so detached from it that we're so now fearful of death. Oh God, we're going to die.

[00:17:56] Yeah. Like we were always gonna unfortunately, yeah. [00:18:00] Like we, nobody wants to live with other people they love, but we just have to know that unfortunately at some point we will have to, or they will have to live without us and when you. Again, talking about attachment and we're going to talk about Buddhism today.

[00:18:12] Like when you realize that okay, I can love somebody and it's fine. But I also have to realize that like holding onto it is going to hurt me more. And I know you probably see this a lot. And I see this a lot. And I used to see this when I worked hospice, which was part of the reason it was so hard.

[00:18:30] Watching family members hold on so tightly to the point where it's hurting themselves. Oh, but I don't give up. Don't do this mom. Come on, you got to do this. And mom is exhausted. And mom is I don't want to do this anymore. It's painful, but family having their own emotions, dealing with whatever they're dealing with.

[00:18:48] Again, it's not judgment. I'm just saying this, what happens, like they're dealing with whatever they're dealing with and then putting it on this dying person. And it just makes everything worse. When, they're in the throes of [00:19:00] grief. So now it's it's hard to talk to them to get them out of that.

[00:19:02] But sometimes forcing people to live and forcing this life thing is we're all going to die anyway. Let's just, we all have to step back, move through our grief and we'll be better for it. My rant. Sorry.

[00:19:16] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah. No it's great. And that's exactly right. to me though, the more that I think about it, I'm like, what is our definition of living though? The physical body being alive to me is not living. So if I can't, Go outside. If I can't work in my garden, if I can't. get up and cook myself something to eat.

[00:19:37] If I can't get up and go to the bathroom by myself, like already all of those things is that's not really living to me. And I know that some of that will probably happen with aging, right? If I, am lucky enough to live to be an older age. Some of those things are going to happen.

[00:19:53] I'm going to need some assistance with some of them, but we see people that are. [00:20:00] really kept alive with machines and medications and they're not alive though anymore. Their physical body is maybe, and yes, they might be conscious and talking. But are they actually living or are they just being kept alive?

[00:20:16] And it's to me hard because some of these things, yes, like it's wonderful. It kept my grandmother around to be 94. It keeps people around to be an older age so they can experience more at life and experience, me having a child and some of the things she wouldn't have experienced without some of these things. But yet at the same time, we have to get to the point where We need to let go. It needs to be done that. It's okay, we need to let go. Turn off the things that are keeping them alive. Stop the medication, stop the treatments. And that can be a really tricky place to be in. So that's where it's interesting.

[00:20:55] Cause we're really lucky in some ways that we have all these medical [00:21:00] advancements, but then it makes us have to let go in a different way that we never had to in the past because there was nothing we could do, right? If somebody was dying. There was nothing you could do other than keep them comfortable and tell them you love them and hope that whatever they have you don't get it,

[00:21:15] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Exactly.

[00:21:17] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah, so yes.

[00:21:18] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: wild. It's, it's, such a it's such a complex conversation. And I think there's so many things like, especially with death doulas that like, we can all get together and talk about, but then when people look at it they feel like you're being flippant about it or but it's not, but like everything you're saying, it's That's the core of it.

[00:21:40] What is living to you? Living is literally Enjoy, like you have to be able to obviously everybody has their own definition, but You have to be able to do what you want to do. Whatever you feel is living is really living. And when people decide way I am right now is not making me, not bringing me any type of [00:22:00] joy or content.

[00:22:00] Like, it's important to listen to people and hear them and let people make those decisions for themselves. Especially when they're of sound mind and you know that, so it can be, it's a really hard thing to do. But I think it's so good to honor people in that way,

[00:22:18] sure. Yeah. That's one thing that deaf doulas help with, which is the best thing. No,

[00:22:24] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: And the last thing I think, before we move on, but just to say how there are definitely people that are like, how could you be so casual about death? Like just having these conversations. It's not that this is something that just happened overnight, right?

[00:22:39] It is practice. The more that I talk to people, the more that I am around people, the more comfortable I get. And because I just recently went through this with my aunt, I hadn't experienced anybody close to me dying. After my grandmother which was before I went [00:23:00] through my training and then now just recently with my aunt dying I can say though that it was a really beautiful experience.

[00:23:10] I still grieved and I'm still, going through some process of grieving. Every time I see a picture of her, there's a little part of me that's Oh, and Karen's not here

[00:23:19] anymore, but at the same time, being able to be with her, being able to advocate for her, being able to sit with her and not be afraid of holding her hand and

[00:23:30] talking to her and, holding her hand and holding her like the top of her head.

[00:23:35] I was like, Rubbing the hair on the top of her head as she was actively dying, right? All of those things that I got more comfortable with Was a gift that I could give to her and the only way that I could get more comfortable with it was being Uncomfortable was having these conversations and talking to people and going through experiences and being like, oh, this is a little bit much Like I'm feeling that a little bit of my [00:24:00] body And then just being like, it's okay.

[00:24:02] We'll just breathe through it. It's going to be okay. So having the conversations, thinking about it, it really does pay off in the long run, getting more comfortable with your own death, getting more comfortable with the people around you dying will allow you to be much more present, much more comfortable.

[00:24:20] It's not going to be as upsetting and as traumatic as it tends to be for people that have avoided

[00:24:26] it their entire life. It's, again, doesn't happen overnight. It's not like we're not sensitive to the sadness and the grief and the, the pain that people are going through. It just means that with practice, we've allowed ourselves to like open to that and to be present for it because it's a gift that I feel like I give to anybody that I sit with that's dying.

[00:24:50] I'm not avoiding it. I'm not running from it. I'm there and I'm in it with them. And I'm like, all right, we're going to do this together.

[00:24:57] I can't go with you, but we're going to do it [00:25:00] together.

[00:25:00] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Absolutely. Oh, that's beautiful. Oh So on that beautiful note, we're gonna go to our dish of the week So like I said, we're gonna end up talking about Buddhism we touched on it before and we're gonna talk about it some more, in a couple minutes cuz Jill's very familiar with Buddhism and we'll talk more about that So I was like, what are we gonna have for a dish this week?

[00:25:25] So I picked Buddha's delight Sounds delicious. So here's what you put in Buddha's delight. This is a vegetarian dish So if anybody wants to check this out, who's a vegetarian you will probably really like this So in here, we got some dried shiitake mushrooms, which I love shiitake mushrooms oil dried bean curd ginger garlic green onions green cabbage snow peas or snap peas You oyster sauce, broad bean paste, salt, white pepper, [00:26:00] sesame oil, and bean thread noodles.

[00:26:04] That sounds really delicious. I feel like maybe I've eaten this before, probably. They sell it at

[00:26:08] most Chinese restaurants, right?

[00:26:10] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah. It definitely sounds familiar. And I think, but what's broad bean paste? That's the only one that I

[00:26:15] was like, Oh, I've never heard of that.

[00:26:18] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: That's what I was just thinking too, I was like, broad beans? I was like, I know what broad beans are, I think. Because I think I don't like them. But I've never heard of broad bean paste. I guess if you

[00:26:28] mash up a bunch of broad beans, maybe you have broad bean paste. I don't know.

[00:26:32] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: I don't know. But now I'm going to look it up when we're done. Cause now I'm really curious.

[00:26:37] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: and then you will just soak the mushrooms in some hot water. You'll this is actually okay. First of all, if you're going to make this, it's going to take a minute. This takes a few two or three hours. This is not a lunch thing, everybody. You're going to make this for dinner and you're going to start at three.

[00:26:52] Just for but you're cooking these mushrooms for an hour. Then you're getting a large pan and you're putting the [00:27:00] bean curd. It's like a whole situation. So I'm going to let you guys read it. Of course, I'm going to put in the show notes on how to make it because I'm not going to read all these instructions.

[00:27:08] It's too long. But it sounds nice. So just know that you could eat that.

[00:27:12] Hey everybody. As you know, you're listening to dine with the divine. If you wouldn't mind. You can press pause. Now you can press pause later. You can do it at the end of the show. If you could give us a review wherever you get your podcasts, whether it's apple podcast, Spotify. I really appreciate it. Also, we still want to do a last call segment.

[00:27:34] So if you have any questions, comments, critiques. Anything feel free to email me@dinewiththedivinepodatgmail.com. Where you can give me your information, whatever you think. And we can add it to the show. Okay, keep listening. It's a good one. Thanks. Bye.

[00:27:55] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Okay. So now we're gonna go to our tea time. So for tea time today, we're gonna talk about [00:28:00] Buddhism now. Oh, Jill, how did you find Buddhism for yourself? How did that become your practice or part of your practice?

[00:28:08] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah. So let's say I was raised Catholic, right? Born and raised Catholic down in South Jersey. So it was farmland Catholic

[00:28:16] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah,

[00:28:16] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: And it just, I don't know, I, there was parts of Catholicism that I loved, but there was also a lot of it that I just was like, I don't really get this.

[00:28:25] And I'd ask questions and then the nuns would be like, yeah, just believe that's what faith is. And I was like, Not sure about this. And so when I was in sixth grade, right? So we're talking back in the eighties,

[00:28:39] they were cleaning out one of the closets or something in the school. And they found all these old books from the probably sixties, seventies,

[00:28:47] right?

[00:28:48] So it was in the eighties, not that unrealistic. And I could still remember the last book. page of that book, there was a guy sitting in Lotus position and it talked about meditation

[00:28:59] [00:29:00] and I never forgot it because I think part of me was like, Oh, that's it. That's a thing that's something that like I need to finger out, right?

[00:29:09] I need to find out more. And so then I had heard of yoga when I was in high school, there was like a a night class that, one of the libraries was putting on. So my mom and I went to a couple of yoga classes and I was like, Ooh, this is really neat too. And so then I started trying to learn more on my own.

[00:29:30] And I tried reading a couple books about Buddhism when I was probably about 19 or 20. But I didn't have any teacher, right? I didn't have

[00:29:38] anybody that could answer any questions. So I just felt very like it was all over my head, right? And I tried and I tried, still couldn't get it. And when I was 21, I I went to the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, New York.

[00:29:54] So it was a great culinary school. I worked really hard to get there. I worked two jobs [00:30:00] and I was an RA just to afford to be there, right? Like I, Really wanted to be at this school and I went away for my internship down to Florida and I Got into a fight at a bar with one of my co workers, right? Because again, I'm from Jersey So if you talk shit to me I don't care who you are,

[00:30:23] right? Like I'm only 5'4 but I don't care who you are. And it ended up starting with a guy and he said he was going to take me outside and I called him a pussy because I said only pussies will take women outside and fight

[00:30:40] them. And his friend, his girlfriend was the one that actually came up behind me and hit me from behind. So I ended up fighting her, but I got fired for using a foul word because it was against their policy. She got fired for hitting [00:31:00] me. He got fired for threatening me. So we all got fired.

[00:31:03] I was 15 weeks into an 18 week internship. I almost got expelled from the college. The only reason that I didn't was that morning I went to my executive chef and I said to him, They're really abusing people in the pastry kitchen.

[00:31:23] They're hitting, like not hitting people, but coming up behind you and bumping you. They locked me in a walk in one day, block the door so I couldn't get out. And I said, and I'm telling you right now, I'm not going to be able to not do or say something about it much longer. So like I'm coming to you to deal with

[00:31:41] it.

[00:31:42] And so that's really why he got in my face at the bar because he heard about it. And he got in my face and I was like

[00:31:51] all

[00:31:51] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah.

[00:31:52] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: is how we're going to do it, are we? Lost my job, got actually really depressed. I was really in a deep [00:32:00] depression after that. And this is where some of my magical thinking comes in, where I do find That things kind of place themselves in my path in order for me to experience what I need to experience.

[00:32:13] And there was a yoga studio down the street that I saw like a flyer on the door and I ripped off one of those little tags,

[00:32:21] right? At some point. I don't even remember when it was. And then one day I was getting my car serviced. And again, this is back in like early 2000s. So like we didn't have smartphones. So they had computers that you could get on. And so I got onto the computer and up on the main screen was the website for this yoga studio. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I've heard of that before. And then again, a little bit more time goes by. I'm cleaning my bedroom on my day off and like literally just barely dragging myself out of bed because I just had, I was in a depression

[00:32:54] and I found that little slip of paper.

[00:32:56] And so I called and the owner answered [00:33:00] and he said we're going to have meditation in about an hour. Why don't you stop by? And I was like, I've never meditated. He's Oh, it's fine. It'll be fine.

[00:33:08] So I get there and it's an hour long meditation. And so I sit and it's only me, him and his wife.

[00:33:16] Nobody else came. So it's not like I could get up and walk out. So I sit through this hour and then they start like chanting and I got this book and I'm like, I have no idea what I'm saying. I'm like, this is all bonkers, but I got done it. And I was like, I actually feel really good like this is the first time in probably two months.

[00:33:40] I felt good.

[00:33:41] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Oh,

[00:33:42] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: And so he said, have you ever done yoga before? And I was like, I did a couple classes in high school a few years ago. And he said why don't you come to one of my classes?

[00:33:50] And so I went to class like the next day and he said to me, I think you were a yogi in a past life because you naturally are really good at [00:34:00] this.

[00:34:00] You should take my teacher training. And I was like, are you out of your mind? I was like, I, this is like the third time I've done yoga. Really? And I was like, all right, I'll think about it. And I'm like, when does it start? And he's we're starting next week. And I was like, oh, all right. How about I get some time to think about it. And I went to class every day that week and he just every night he'd be like, Jill, you're gonna take my training and I would be like, I don't know. And then eventually I started taking the training and the training was ending on the week that I was finishing my. second internship. I just found another one in Florida.

[00:34:40] So it was another 18 weeks all over again after taking two weeks trying to find one, right? So 20 more weeks in Florida, but I would have never gone to that yoga studio. I would have never had the time to take that training.

[00:34:53] If I wouldn't have gotten fired from this job. And when I graduated from that program, I cried and I was like, you [00:35:00] saved my life.

[00:35:00] Honestly,

[00:35:01] I potentially would have committed suicide. Like I had already just had so many things. And so we'll do the quick trigger warning for people. It's going to mention rape. All right. So if you're not good with this, like Pause for a little bit.

[00:35:17] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah. I'll put

[00:35:18] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: okay.

[00:35:19] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Timestamp.

[00:35:20] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: So about a year before I had gotten into that fight my boss propositioned me to sleep with him for money.

[00:35:32] And when I told him no, he drugged me and he raped me anyway.

[00:35:35] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Oh my God.

[00:35:36] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: And I didn't tell anybody. I, Went through this whole, and so it took me many years to figure out that around that same time, every year I've gotten into a fight, whether it's physical, whether it's verbal, it took until 2022 for me to be talking to my therapist, for her to go.

[00:35:56] Cause I was like, I don't understand like, why is it around the same [00:36:00] time every year? I just fight with people and I don't get it. And she was like what else happened around Memorial day weekend? I was like that's when my boss drugged me and raped me. And she was like, Hello, Jill, like you couldn't fight then.

[00:36:13] So now you fight people around that same time, right? You go through this cycle. And so like I had been dealing with all of that and I really potentially. There is a very good chance that I could have committed suicide because I just was that deep in like this pain and this suffering and just holding it all in and not telling anybody.

[00:36:33] And then I got in that fight and I almost got expelled and it just all was too much. And so I cried at my graduation and I was like, you saved my life. Literally you

[00:36:42] saved my life. And that was in 2001. And so then I like practice yoga and I, had been meditating on my own and it was really good for me, right?

[00:36:55] It was a practice that I kept up with for many years, off and on. And so then I started [00:37:00] working in 2014 at a nonprofit and at the nonprofit, I was teaching baking and I was teaching culinary and a lot of the people that I was teaching. We're coming from very traumatic circumstances. A lot, we're transitioning out of the prison system, which is a whole hot mess

[00:37:19] of trauma and just shit, which is a whole soapbox I could get on, but we're not going to right now.

[00:37:25] But then there was also, people were being shot and killed. Their siblings were being shot and killed. Their parents were being shot and killed. There was drug overdoses. I was like and me being very caring and very empathetic, like I just couldn't not take it

[00:37:39] And finally one day when I had a student, her brother was shot and killed. When they had her brother's funeral, the people that shot and killed him burned down her house.

[00:37:49] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Oh my

[00:37:50] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: So now her and her one year old baby were homeless. Her mother had a nervous breakdown and was in the hospital. And I came home and I said to my husband we [00:38:00] might be taking a baby because she has nowhere to go when I can't let this baby go on the streets.

[00:38:05] And he was like, okay, we could do this. But I really think you need therapy. And also, you used to really love meditation. Why don't you go back to meditation?

[00:38:15] And I was like, that's probably not a bad idea. I was like, I'm going to start looking into like meditation places. And so then again, weird circumstance.

[00:38:24] I have you ever heard, Of something called a Munch, M-U-N-C-H. Okay. So people in the BDSM community go to these meetups called Munches,

[00:38:37] and it's just a place to meet people. It's not like you're not doing anything. You're just like meeting people and you're talking, right? And so a friend of mine invited me to a Munch in Philadelphia. And I started like talking to this guy and we were hanging out and he was like, Oh, my friend down the street. He's got really good weed. You want to go smoke? I was like, all right, sure. Let's go do

[00:38:56] this. So we go to this guy's house and we're smoking and [00:39:00] we just get into this really deep conversation and he says, Oh, I go to this meditation place on Monday nights.

[00:39:06] It's like an open meditation. You don't have to have any training. He was like, I think you'd really like it. And I was like, yo, that is crazy. Because I just started looking for a place to go to meditation.

[00:39:18] And so I went on a Monday night and I've never left. And that was probably in 20, no yeah.

[00:39:25] 2017. And so I started going on Monday nights. It's very casual. People aren't like, Most of the people that went weren't even Buddhist. They were just going because they wanted to learn more and we would read from books and then we would have group discussions and we would sit and we'd all meditate together.

[00:39:44] And I just, I loved it so much. I loved the community and I just started to really connect with a lot of the people and a lot of the teachings. And so in, 2021 when we were still doing zoom and we were [00:40:00] still meeting on zoom, right? So we were having our meditation and then we would have our discussion. And we were doing a reading and it basically said something along the lines of, it doesn't matter what path you choose. It could be Hinduism. It could be Catholicism. It could be any path. You just need to pick one. You need to pick it. You need to stick to it. You need to study it. You need to learn it.

[00:40:22] You just need to pick a path. And I was like, all right, I think I'm going to take my refuge now. And I just, I thought about it for a couple of days and I reached out to one of the teachers and I said, I think I want to take my refuge vow. And he was like, all right, then let's do it. And so I talk about attachment, right?

[00:40:44] So I had been one time out to this house that he gives vows at, and it's like out, in Pennsylvania, beautiful. He's got his own shrine on his property, right? Then they have this beautiful dinner and all this stuff, right? Yeah. I got COVID

[00:40:58] two days [00:41:00] before I was supposed to take my vows. So I couldn't go in person.

[00:41:04] And so I had to give up my attachment to what taking my vows was going to look like. I already have my dress picked out. I. was ready. And instead I had to sit in the same room I'm in right now by myself. My family wasn't even with me. They watched it over zoom too, because we were still at that point, I was still trying to make sure I didn't get people sick.

[00:41:25] We still were in that place. And so I said this is a great first practice as a Buddhist was to let go of my attachment to what I thought it was going to be like, because, when I used to have my bakery and I would do wedding cakes. There was the couples that would come in and you'd be like, Oh, they just want the wedding.

[00:41:45] They don't want the marriage. They want the cake and they want the party and they want all that stuff. They don't want the marriage. And so I was like I'm not doing this for the party. I'm not doing this to go and go through this [00:42:00] experience. I'm doing it because I'm committing to myself to follow this path, to learn, to study, to practice, to just commit myself to one path. And I still do, have other little practices, from my Catholic background, some like witchy kind of practices that I bring in. But really for the most part now, I just try to focus my efforts on practicing what I'm learning as much as I can. There's a ton of information out there to learn.

[00:42:31] I am certainly nowhere near an expert, that's just how I got here. And now it's been a couple of years and I meditate every morning and sometimes it's 10 minutes. Sometimes it's 30 minutes. I am trying to just keep a regular schedule. I still have two kids.

[00:42:48] I'm still working. I'm still doing stuff. So there's days when yes, I would love to sit every day for 30 minutes. Some mornings that's not realistic. It's just not going to happen. But yeah, so that's how I got here. That's like the [00:43:00] long right story. But really, It's all part of my healing journey and I am very grateful for it.

[00:43:07] Oh, and then one of the things too. There's a practice in Buddhism called Tonglin, okay, and so it's sometimes translated as sending and taking, and the way that I had learned it, that was very helpful for me. It's very counterintuitive to what we try to do, right? Most of the time we want to push away things that are bad.

[00:43:33] Push away the negative and only take in the positive, right? Where with Tonglin, it's actually the opposite. We practice taking in the negative. We practice breathing in all of the negative things. And the way that people have, Visualized. It is like a dark, sticky, heavy substance. We're taking that in and we're transmuting it [00:44:00] into love and light.

[00:44:01] And we're giving that back out

[00:44:03] to the world. Now you could practice tongue Lin. Usually when they first teach it to you, they'll say, start first with somebody who's that you love, right? Somebody that you love and you're like, all right, let me take all your ick

[00:44:16] and give you back love, right? And then you work on people that are a little bit harder, right?

[00:44:20] So then I started working on some like family members that I had some like issues with where I was like, all right, I'm going to take it for you. Don't really want to, but I'm going to. And so then you can open it up to your whole community. You could open it up to the whole world, right? You can open it up to whatever you want. And so when I was at my job and I was talking to people that were having Really rough times. Or they were just telling me about really, like one guy was telling me his whole life story. His mom was addicted to crack cocaine. So he's a crack baby.

[00:44:56] Like when you hear about crack babies, like that was him been in and out of [00:45:00] prison, had a lot of learning disabilities just, and he was just pouring it out to me.

[00:45:06] And in the past, I didn't want to, but eventually I would have to close myself off. There was just only so much of it I could take. And so I still remember listening to him talk and saying to myself in my head, breathe in the pain, breathe out love, breathe in the pain, breathe out love. But I was able to sit and hold that space for him and allow him to just tell me these things that in the past I would have just held it and then eventually I would have been like, I can't hold this anymore because it's going to make me sick. So that practice was great. Life changing for me. It was life changing because now I can sit and I can hold that space. And even like when the war started, in the Middle East now, the only thing that I could do is I practiced Tonglin for all the mothers, especially. I'm like just all these mothers that are losing their babies on [00:46:00] both sides, right?

[00:46:00] Whether it's your kids out fighting and getting killed, whether your kids are getting killed because they're getting blown up, like all the tragedy. So I just sit and I practice Tonglin for all the mothers, but really all the mothers of the world that are losing babies and they shouldn't, right? They're just too much tragedy.

[00:46:18] So it's changed the way that I show up in the world so much. I love that practice. It's amazing.

[00:46:27] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: of all, thank you for sharing that your whole journey with us. I really appreciate that because that is, It's a lot that you went through to get to such a place of healing. And when you talked about you were possibly be going to take that lady and her child in or just her child.

[00:46:44] I thought about like how a lot of times in life, We want to help people or save people. And we don't always realize that sometimes we're doing that kind of like how you were getting in fights at the same time of the year. [00:47:00] We don't realize that sometimes like we're trying to save people, but we're really trying to save that part of ourselves that feels so desperate.

[00:47:06] And so when your husband's okay, that's okay. But maybe also. You should talk to a professional about all this. It's I've been through something similar where it's I was doing all this stuff and somebody's maybe chill.

[00:47:19] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah.

[00:47:20] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: well, it's no, I just want to help everyone.

[00:47:22] They're like, are you sure? Cause you seem like you're flipping out, so

[00:47:27] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah.

[00:47:27] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: it's hard. Like it's really hard. And I think a lot of the, especially when you are, like you said, an empathetic person and you really do want to be kind and help people. But sometimes our helpfulness is to avoid dealing with our own hurt and thinking if I can help this person, if I can save this person, or if in this situation, I can stand up for myself, it makes up for these other times that I didn't save myself or stand up for myself, or I had no choice, but this happened to me, it's crazy when you realize it. And that's why [00:48:00] therapy is great because it helps you realize it. And I would say this and people think I'm shitting on therapy, which I'm absolutely not. Cause I love therapy. I've been to therapy, but also sometimes people find that in a spiritual, whether it's meditation or a spiritual practice that can also, some people, sometimes that's what people, that's all they need.

[00:48:19] And that's fine too. Whatever works for you. But that's why these different practices and paths and getting help, professionally is so great for your life. Because you are, even things happen to us and it's completely out of our control. People do things to us completely out of our control.

[00:48:37] But what is in our control is what we do next. When you get to a place of being like, This shit is shit. This is awful. I'm like,

[00:48:45] I feel really bad. I'm like, Then you can be like, What am I going to do with this feeling? How can I make this productive? Maybe I can talk to somebody to help me move through this shitty part of my life.

[00:48:57] Maybe I can do something. help, myself by [00:49:00] finding some type of way to deal with it, whether it's meditation or a spiritual practice or, I don't know, learning how to box, whatever it makes you feel better. So that's the best thing. It's even though we do not have we cannot control how others treat us or what life throws at us.

[00:49:15] You can control event when you're how you move through your pain because Everybody you're able to do it when you get to that place you can do it. Okay, I stood on my soapbox about

[00:49:27] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah,

[00:49:28] but no, but it is true and that's why there is people to help support you through those things, right? We also don't have to do it alone. Therapist, any, really any spiritual practice you do, that's why there is people. people to help guide you. So like you don't need to do it alone and there's no shame.

[00:49:45] And that's, I think for the longest time, that's why I didn't tell anybody I was ashamed. I was embarrassed. I shouldn't, this shouldn't have happened to me. Why was I so stupid? How did I let these things happen? We're like now. And really for a long time, I couldn't even talk about it without crying.

[00:49:58] It just, when I would [00:50:00] start to talk about it, it would like all bubble up out of me because I'd spent so many years trying to keep it down. Now I can talk about it no problem, right? For the most part, it's I'm open about it. I don't have any shame. I'm not embarrassed. I'm not embarrassed that I needed help, right?

[00:50:14] That I

[00:50:14] had to go to therapy to work through it. Like it's part of life and there are people to help you. So just don't be afraid to reach out for help.

[00:50:25] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: in any situation just We're here. Somebody's here. Don't worry.

[00:50:30] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yep.

[00:50:30] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: So with all that being said and Jill sharing such an amazing story with us we will i'm also going to give you we're going to head over to wikipedia real quick because you know I love wikipedia. So wikipedia talks about buddhism as Buddhism or known as buddhadharma or I can't see this.

[00:50:50] There's a lot of pronunciations From the indian subcontinent that I may mispronounce. I apologize If anybody listens to this podcast, you know that I [00:51:00] am terrible at pronouncing things, and I really do try my best. Dharma Vinana, Dharma, okay, you guys, Buddhism. It's, We'll just call it that.

[00:51:10] So it's the world's fourth largest religion. There's over 520 million followers estimated. Around the world, and it's about 7 percent of the global population. It originate, and we'll talk about where it originated because we're going to tell you the very short abbreviated story of Buddha in a minute.

[00:51:26] It originated with Buddha, in 5th century BCE, and then it spread through much of Asia. Now the thing about it is Buddha Himself was from a, an area near Nepal, India border. So a lot of people are like why don't more people practice it with India?

[00:51:43] It's because India already had a religion. They're like, bro, we've been doing this for a long time. , there are Buddhists in India, but there are more Buddhists in China, Vietnam, Thailand, Southeastern Asia, there used to be some in Central Asia, but then it got knocked out by [00:52:00] Islam when Islam came along a little later.

[00:52:02] The big thing people need to know about Buddha is that he was really into everybody should do stuff in the middle and it goes into his story but so it's like, Being super rich or being really extreme about stuff.

[00:52:17] It's like really unnecessary. Like you don't need to do all that, but then lacking not doing anything, isn't really great either. He was like, just stay in the middle and you'll probably be fine. Which I think is a really good philosophy for life

[00:52:30] because it works most times. Stay in the middle.

[00:52:34] You'll be fine. I'm

[00:52:37] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Because the thing too with Buddhism is there's a lot of different versions of Buddhism.

[00:52:43] And so yeah, some of the words like the type of Buddhism that I specifically follow now is Vajrayana, also known as Siddhartha. Tantric Buddhism. And it is based off of like Indi, Indian Tantric practices.

[00:52:58] But Buddha, he was [00:53:00] Hindu. Like that was, or when he was Siddhartha before he became Buddha, right? So he was Hindu and he just went off and got enlightened and was like, I'm just going to teach people. That's one of the things I love about Buddhism is he wasn't like, Hey, I'm special.

[00:53:15] I'm not a God. I'm just a man. And what I did, you can do too. I'm just going to tell you how I did it. And I really like that. I appreciate

[00:53:24] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: me too. And that's one thing people so people have a it's not really an art. I guess it's an argument for some people. It shouldn't be. It's not really that big of a deal. But some people say Buddhism isn't like a religion because it's not really focused on a god. There's not like a definite theology in Buddhism.

[00:53:42] So some people say it's a philosophy. So there are people who I guess argue, like I said, you don't have to argue about it. It's not really necessary, but they will say oh they're Buddhist and Jewish or they're Buddhist and Christian, which is okay, cool. If that's what you choose to do, it's not a problem.

[00:53:58] And a lot of the times you can do [00:54:00] that. Because you can mix a theology with it if you so choose. There's different schools of Buddhism, but there's also, regionally, depending on where you are in the world, a lot of the time, because it's more of a philosophy than a full religion, those areas have mixed their folk religion or local religion.

[00:54:20] So a lot of for instance, Tibetan Buddhism does have different types of gods you might find in it, based on indigenous Tibetan folk mythology, so it's not, It mixed with Buddhism a lot. And same thing with there's a lot of mixture with Daoism and Buddhism from China, Shinto and Buddhism, there's a lot of different stuff going on depending on the region of the world that you might be in, which is really interesting.

[00:54:48] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Because mine is Tibetan and there is some like gods and like goddesses. And again, some of that stuff I don't really get into. We'll have like different chants and things. I'm like, all right, [00:55:00] cool. I don't, that's not really the path I'm going down, but again, I try to learn as much as I can, but it is Tibetan Buddhism.

[00:55:07] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Okay, and that's the beauty of it, right? It's like you don't really have to if you don't really want to you can do your own thing with buddhism because it's like there's just like christianity just like any religion there are central concepts. It's like we all believe this But like you can spice it how you like we all follow the same Thing so one of the concepts we have is like the four noble truths.

[00:55:30] So These truths are now i'm gonna do my best. Duca, which means Not being at ease or suffering. So duca is a You innate characteristic of the perpetual cycle of grasping at things ideas or habits so saying basically like you will continue to suffer as long as you keep trying to like Attain something or get something or like you're still so needing to have [00:56:00] something so that's Dukkha.

[00:56:01] Then you have Semudaya,

[00:56:07] which is that Dukkha is caused by Tanha, which is a craving or desire. So the reason that this is happening is because you have a desire for something you, or it literally means attachment or thirst also. Then we have nirrodha. So this means that dukkha can be ended or contained by the confinement or letting go of tanha.

[00:56:32] So saying that, you can stop suffering by detaching. And then Marga, which is a path that is leading to the confinement of Tanha or Dukkha, classically known as the Noble Eight Foot Path, Eight Fold Path, but sometimes Other paths of liberation. So we'll talk about the eightfold path in a minute. So basically a thing, Marga is talking about how you can get out of this now. Now we also have this, the three [00:57:00] marks of existence, another concept. So many schools of Buddhism teach these three marks of existence, which is Dukkha, which is the unrest or suffering. Anika, which is impermanence, nothing is permanent, and Anatta, which is non self, and living things have no permanent soul or essence.

[00:57:17] Okay. You will not be able to hold on to anything forever. That's the big concept in those three. And then, oh, also Nirvana. And Nirvana is peace. The whole point Buddha said was basically we're all trying to get to Nirvana, which is a point where you feel totally at peace, meaning that you don't really need anything.

[00:57:42] You're like, I'm good. I'm okay. Because when you aren't reaching and when you're not feeling like you're lacking something and you have to have something, you're going to be in a better place, which is generally true, right?

[00:57:55] Like people who are like, I got to make money. I got to make money. I got to make money. [00:58:00] That's a shitty way to live. And yes, we all have to make money to live, but if your whole life circulates around making money. You're not really doing anything productive and being happy to do that. It's, that is a different type of suffering because you're attaching yourself to money, which like money's money.

[00:58:17] You don't want to touch yourself to that. Also the cycle of rebirth and reincarnation is big in Buddhism as it is in Hinduism. And the same thing applies to Hinduism, but it's like a little different in Buddhism. So in Buddhism, the whole thing is you're going to keep being born until you get it, which I totally very much agree with that worldview.

[00:58:39] I think it makes a lot of sense. It's I really do think that you're just going to keep being born until you get it right or until you learn something. And once you reach nirvana, though, you don't have to be born anymore. You're done. Because you got it. You reached the, yeah, you, you won the prize. Let's see which other. Oh, and another big one [00:59:00] that people talk about all the time. Karma, right? Oh, the karma, like bad karma. Like, karma. But karma is not really it's not like you do something bad and like you're punished for your bad karma. From everything I've read, it's more it's what you get in exchange for how you act or like what you do.

[00:59:20] If you are doing something negative, It can affect your life negatively, but say you do something that you shouldn't have done or something negative, or you treated somebody in a way that maybe was wrong, if you learn from that, then it's okay, you're fine. Cause you learn something and you're like, okay, maybe I shouldn't act like that.

[00:59:38] That's not cool. If you apologize to that person or you do something to make it right. It's fine. Don't worry. You're your karma is erased. Cross it off. I'm like it's more about yourself. It's not about other people. It's how you Are acting yourself and how you're treating people. And basically you can Karma can also even be thoughts so it can be [01:00:00] like You can be sitting around thinking shitty things about people or having negative thoughts about yourself and that's not good either no, it's not just against other people. It's against yourself.

[01:00:09] Because when you think bad about yourself, you're putting yourself down. You're not putting yourself in a place of peace or happiness because you're thinking about how you are lacking as a person or you're not doing what you're supposed to do. That's not good for you. That puts you in a bad place, in a negative place, and it also affects everybody around you.

[01:00:27] That's the other cool thing about Buddhism, is that it's a very communal situation. It's like we're all trying to make each, trying to do well for ourselves because we realize that the better we treat ourselves and the more at peace we can be, the more at peace we can make our community, our family, our friends.

[01:00:45] And we could all be in a better place. That's why I like Buddhists. They're cool. They're very neat. Let's see. What else was I going to bring up? So those are some of the major things. There's a lot in Buddhism. We could go on for days. But I just want to bring up some of these [01:01:00] little major concepts of Buddhism.

[01:01:02] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah, actually I pulled something up that we read at the beginning of our meetings when we get together on Mondays called the Four Preliminaries. So I think it's similar to the Four Noble Truths, but this is one of the interpretations of it. And it basically says in your daily life, try to number one, maintain an awareness of the preciousness of human life.

[01:01:27] Be aware of the reality that life ends. Death comes for everyone. Three, recall that whatever you do, whether virtuous or not, has a result. What goes around comes around. And four, contemplate that as long as you're too focused on self importance and too caught up in thinking about how you are good or bad, you will suffer.

[01:01:51] Obsessing about getting what you want and avoiding what you don't want does not result in happiness. And I just feel like those [01:02:00] four things, really, if you think about that every day. including the fact that we're all going to die, right? Like we have this one life, it is precious, right? And it is going to end and whatever it is that we do, whether it's something good or something bad, there is going to be a result, right?

[01:02:19] So be careful what you do. Cause if you do something bad to somebody, something bad's going to happen to you.

[01:02:24] And just stop obsessing about all of it. What we want, what we don't want, trying to grasp, trying to push it away. Just chill out. Cause it, yeah, just relax, like it'll be fine. And so yes, we read those for like at the beginning of our kind of like meditation sessions just as reminders.

[01:02:43] And I found that I printed a copy out and I have it across from me, but it's too dark. I couldn't read it. I had to pull it up on my computer, but

[01:02:51] I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.

[01:02:53] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: I love that. Yeah, because honestly, that's it. And it makes so much sense. And I think if [01:03:00] you're not a Buddhist, I'm not a Buddhist, but I love a lot of these concepts for that reason. Because it's it's super simple. It's I don't have to do much. Except acknowledge I'm gonna die and be nice to people.

[01:03:10] I'm like, cool.

[01:03:11] That's not hard. I could do that for free. Doesn't cost any money. So Yes, it's very I love that. So these are some of the concepts in Buddhism again I'm gonna have a link to some other websites if you want to check out more about Buddhism some good information about it So now we'll do our story time Because I don't want to keep Jill here all evening Even though we could keep talking because this has been great So we're just gonna tell our quick story about who Buddha was like, what was his deal?

[01:03:44] What happened? So Buddha what is what we're gonna call him, but his real name was Siddhartha Gautama again, sorry if I'm butchering that but That was his real name. So he, and Buddha means teacher. So he that's the [01:04:00] title that he got later on. So he was born between the 6th and 4th century BCE in an area called Lumbini, which is near Kapilavastu, which is in the Shaka, Shakya Republic.

[01:04:16] The Kosala Kingdom, near the border between India and Nepal. There's a really good movie I watched years ago, and this is when I became really fascinated with Buddhism. I think what's his face? Oh, the actor that I really like,

[01:04:31] Keanu Reeves is in that movie.

[01:04:32] Yeah. It's

[01:04:33] actually a good movie.

[01:04:35] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah.

[01:04:36] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: I'll go to put a link to it cause I can't remember the name of it, but it's a very good movie and it's very good at explaining like the story of Buddha really actually very well. That's how I know his story is from that movie. So he was born and apparently what had happened was like we said before,

[01:04:49] buddha was a Hindu, like Jesus was Jewish. Buddha was Hindu. And, like we said, they believe in reincarnation. Most people know that. So his mom was a [01:05:00] queen. He was, he's from a queen A real class and apparently his mom was walking around outside and then her and her servants stopped under this tree and she's wait a minute.

[01:05:10] I need to give birth. And then she did. And then she gave birth and apparently Buddha walked out and he's everybody, excuse me. This is my last life. I'd like you to know and they were like, you're a

[01:05:22] baby Oh my god okay buddha cool But he talked and then I guess he went back to being a baby for a while So then as buddha grew up, everybody loved him. He was great. Everyone thought he was fantastic Especially his dad loved him. And I think and I don't have this written down, but i'm pretty sure that his mom died like early on I think and I think his dad was super sad about that and he loved his son so much that he never wanted him to be upset.

[01:05:56] He just never wanted him to be sad or want for anything. [01:06:00] So he was like, this is what we're gonna do. Keep him in here. I want everybody to be chill around my son. I want him to only see people like being happy and living good. So everyone did that because his dad was a king and that's what they had to do.

[01:06:14] So then Buddha, when he got a little older, he started to be a little suspicious. Is everyone really this doing this well all the time? This is weird. So he had a friend who was living with him. They, it might've been one of his servants, but he asked them, he's can you take me out to the real world?

[01:06:31] To the streets. And I want to see how this, like what the streets are talking about. And his friend was like, I'm not supposed to, and he's I know you're not supposed to, but I'd really like to see what's going on in the outside world. Cause I've been in a palace my whole life. So his friend takes him out.

[01:06:44] And when he takes him out, he sees an old man, a sick man and a dead man, like a corpse, and he is horrified. He didn't realize that shit like this happened. He was like, Oh my God, this is so sad. So when he went back. His life has [01:07:00] now changed forever, he doesn't know what to think, and he's people are suffering shit is going down, I don't know.

[01:07:05] And now he realizes that now he knows this information, he's internally having crisis I can't live like this knowing that other people are, like, suffering and going through this and people are dying, this is so sad. He's you know what? I need to go on a journey and I need to figure out how to not suffer because I can't handle this shit.

[01:07:24] So his dad was super sad about it, but his dad's okay you gotta do what you gotta do. Love you, son. He gave him, he packed his bag for him, probably gave him some food and let him go. So he went out and he met these holy men who were living in the forest. And they were like monks.

[01:07:42] They were living in there. They were they were like, think of a monk in every, any religion, a monk or a nun, they live very simply, right? They don't eat a lot. They don't have a lot of stuff. They don't have lots of different outfits. They usually dress very modestly. So he [01:08:00] met these people, but they were, like, even more extreme.

[01:08:02] They were living in the forest. They were eating whatever they could scrounge up. These people were out here just being like, no, we've dedicated ourselves to the spiritual path. So he thought maybe I'll live good this way. So he did it for a while and then he realized I don't enjoy this. This is actually making me more unhappy.

[01:08:21] Than I was when I first saw that dead guy. I'm even more unhappy. I can't handle this So he then was sitting one day underneath a tree and he was meditating and he's I don't know what to do I don't know what to do. Like I don't know how i'm gonna live then this mara. Who's this? Kind of Demon guy he came up to buddha.

[01:08:44] It was like, hey buddha. Guess what? I have all these sexy daughters You want to come and hang out with my sexy daughters and have sexy time with them and buddha's not really He's like actually i'm trying to [01:09:00] meditate. So all of mara's sexy I think there was like seven sexy daughters came and they all represented different things right like lust or like You not the seven deadly sins, but those kinds of things, lust, money, all this kind of stuff, they came around him. And Buddha was like no thank you. And in that moment he realized, Wait a minute, actually, I don't have to have sex with the sexy daughters. I'm not gonna do that because it seems not great. But, I actually don't have to live like this to be happy.

[01:09:28] Maybe if I like, have what I need, I'll be good. Like I just need to have what I need and like I just need to live good and I just need to try to help people and That's all right. Like I don't need to live in the forest and walk around and be scrounging for food and begging. So that's when he, all this noble truths came to him.

[01:09:47] And that's when he hit nirvana because he was like, Oh shit. Something in his brain shifted and he realized I'm completely happy if I have Enough of what I need and I'm not attached or wanting [01:10:00] anything. And that was part of the point of Mara and his sexy daughters. He wasn't attached to any of those things that they were trying to bring to him, sex or money, or he was like, no, I don't need to be attached to those things.

[01:10:12] You can have sex, you can have money, but as long as you're not craving it, or yeah, I don't need it. And I don't want to suffer for it. I'm going to be fine. So that's when he realized all this stuff and there was five of his friends who were on this like extreme holy path with him. He went and told them, he's guys, listen, you'll never believe what just happened.

[01:10:34] I was under a tree and then Mara, the demon guy came with his hot daughters and I told him to go away. And. Boom. I realized the secret. So there was five of them and he told them and he was, they were like, Oh shit, that makes a lot of sense. So they became his five disciples. And then from there, he went around preaching like Jesus style.

[01:10:56] And she's trying to, he was before Jesus, but he was telling everybody [01:11:00] like, Hey guys, listen, I found out what to do. Just do this. And everybody, a lot of people were like, Actually, that sounds like a really good idea. At the end of his life, they say that he knew, like he knew he was gonna die.

[01:11:11] He's I think my time has come. I've taught enough people. And they also said though that I read somewhere that they said he may have accidentally eaten spoiled pork. I don't know. Who knows? Which is weird because I'm like, I think he was a vegetarian, but wait, I don't know. Who knows? That could be somebody on the internet trying to trick me.

[01:11:28] But anyway, he wasn't reborn because he had reached nirvana. His body got cremated in the traditional way, and then people all over the world His message spread through the Silk Road and everybody heard about it. And people really love this idea of not being attached to stuff and just trying to find that happiness.

[01:11:47] And that's the story of Buddha. And he really changed a lot of lives and brought a lot of peace to a lot of people. Buddha. Siddhartha, you did a great job.

[01:11:56] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: There's a theory that

[01:11:58] when Jesus [01:12:00] disappeared for those years, he actually had learned Buddhism. And then that's what he brought back and was really trying to teach people that eventually turned into his own thing. But that's actually where he had. learned what he knew, which I think is pretty interesting because yeah, Buddha was before Jesus and it does make sense.

[01:12:23] He did disappear, like he,

[01:12:24] he went somewhere else for a while and learned some stuff and came back and was like, Hey y'all, I learned all this really cool stuff. Let me teach it to you. And then, humans did what humans did. Cause even, The stories of like Jesus's birth, if you look at Hinduism and some of their stories, they're pretty similar.

[01:12:48] There's a lot of similarities going on there. So I thought that was really interesting. I was like, Oh, look at that.

[01:12:53] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yes. And there is a book, I read this book when I think I was in high school and I should probably read it [01:13:00] again. Cause I didn't completely understand it, but I love the concept. I tried to be a Buddhist for three weeks and then I was like, I don't think so. I love me. I was like, I don't know if I could do this, but it's called like living Buddha, living Christ.

[01:13:14] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yep, same book I tried to

[01:13:15] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah.

[01:13:16] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Hanh. Yeah.

[01:13:17] it was the first book I tried to read, and I was like, what? I don't get this at all. And that's the thing too, not all Buddhists are vegetarian. Again, the lineage that I follow. Actually the founder of Shambhala, which is the centers that I go to and whatnot.

[01:13:36] He came from Tibet. He actually died from alcoholism basically. He was a partier. And there's a lot of drinking and eating and having sex and all this stuff in the like tantric Buddhist path. Then there's also the Buddhists that I've met too, where they're like, no, like we don't harm anything, like no [01:14:00] animals, no nothing, and yeah, so there, there's a flavor of Buddhism for everybody out there

[01:14:06] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: exactly. And it's all up to what you want to practice and like how you every and everything in the world. I know there's rules in a lot of religions, but. Are they really rules? Or are you just supposed to connect with your spiritual path the way you want to? Whatever makes you happy, fine. You can do whatever you want.

[01:14:23] And yes, I tried to read that book. I read some of it. And I was like, this is a little confusing to me. What I did get from it was there's a lot of similarities between the two of them and even the concept of nirvana, Jesus's whole thing was like, turn the other cheek don't be a dick, help people who, might need your help, even if you don't like them, because it's just a nice thing to do.

[01:14:45] Like this kind of similar idea of just be chill and everything will be chill. It's like very similar between the two of them. Everyone just fucking be calm and we'll all be fine.

[01:14:57] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah, [01:15:00] exactly. Be calm. Just relax. Stop worrying so much and don't be a dick. Come on now. If we could all just do that, it would be a much better place for sure.

[01:15:10] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: 100%. Don't be a dick. So yeah that's Buddha. We talk about him, our new friend of the podcast, cause we hadn't talked about him yet. And I was like, it's very necessary that we talk about Buddha cause I love his story and everyone should watch this movie. I will find out the name Keanu Reeves is in it and he's very

[01:15:27] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Yeah. I don't remember what it's called either, and I know exactly what you're talking about, and I can't remember it

[01:15:32] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Like the concept is these Buddhist monks from I'm not sure which country come to this family and they live in America and they think that their son is like the reincarnation of one of their leaders and it goes through all these. It's really, it's a really good movie. It's really good. It's cute.

[01:15:49] Exactly.

[01:15:51] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: that's what it is this reincarnation of this spiritual leader over and over again. And they do find them [01:16:00] when they're young, which is part of what China's trying to do now, which is prevent them from finding the next Dalai Lama. Because Tibet and China and their whole hot mess that they got going on.

[01:16:09] So yeah,

[01:16:12] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: Jill, so much for joining us today. This is fun. This was a good

[01:16:17] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: this was fun.

[01:16:18] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: can you tell people where they can find you and your podcast on the worldwide webs.

[01:16:25] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: sure. So I am all over social media, basically at end of life clarity, which is my business name. And I have my podcast seeing death clearly, which you can find on all the podcast platforms. So definitely look me up and our episode is not out yet but I think in the next few weeks I'm going to have our episode coming out.

[01:16:50] So we'll make sure that you can hear me and Ashley on my podcast cause that was a lot of fun too. I really loved our conversation. So

[01:16:57] ashley-_1_04-16-2024_183227: we had a really good conversation. [01:17:00] Yeah. So I will put the links and the show notes to all of Jill's stuff and her podcasts. Everybody can listen to it. It's really good. She has a lot of really good conversations on there. And thank you everybody for being with us. This is Dying With the Divine.

[01:17:12] If you have any questions, comments, concerns, feel free to email me at dyingwiththedivinepod at gmail. com. You can find us on all the socials. Except for X or Twitter or stuff. I don't know how to use that. But I do use threads. I don't know, don't ask me YouTube and Facebook and Instagram, sometimes TikTok.

[01:17:32] It depends on how I feel that week. Also, if you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm at Sankofa hss, S-A-N-K-O-F-A-H-S on Instagram, TikTok. Threads and Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook if you want to get at me. So thank you everybody once again. I hope everyone has a fantastic week and I'll talk to all of you next week.

[01:17:56] squadcaster-ii7j_1_04-16-2024_183227: Bye.

[01:17:57] ​ [01:18:00]