Deathwork and Psychopomps with Carla Torres

Carla Torres

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[00:00:00] MacBook Air Microphone-3: Hi, everybody just came on

[00:00:02] MacBook Air Microphone-4: To give everybody a content note.

[00:00:04] MacBook Air Microphone-3: so this episode, we talk a lot about death. We have a wonderful guest, Carla Torres. She's a death midwife and doula. And we talk about death, not in a gruesome or creepy or scary way. We're talking about it and a matter of fact, life kind of way. How life is many cycles and death is part of that cycle. So if you are sensitive to that, or you don't want to hear about that this week, that's totally fine. Go ahead and listen to a different episode. But this conversation was really good. I think it's super important. We talk a lot about grief. We talk about, how we need to honor and respect people who are dying. And I think it's a really good episode. So if you are sensitive to the subject, like I said, It's totally fine, but if you can, I think it's really important message that Carla gives to us. And I think it's really important to share this information.

[00:00:57] MacBook Air Microphone-5: And with that onto the show.

[00:00:59] Ashley: [00:01:00] Hi, everybody, and welcome to Dine with the Divine. I am your host, Ashley, and together we'll be exploring the magical, the mystical, and everything in between. So on today's episode, we're going to talk about psychopomps and the origins of the Grim Reaper. So today we have an awesome guest. We have Karla.

[00:01:26] She is a certified end of life coach, death doula, a midwife, home funeral guide, ceremonialist, and reiki practitioner. Karla received both of, both her end of life coaching and death doula certifications. Through her coursework in, with the Conscious Dying Institute in Boulder, Colorado, she also studied with Sacred Crossings during her Conscious Dying and After the Last Breath courses, where she learned the sacred loss art of home funerals and after death body care.

[00:01:59] Carla [00:02:00] is also passionate about the death positive movement and is an advocate for normalizing topics of death and our morality in everyday life and conversations. Carla started in the Carla started Death in the Morning, Ceremonial Death Rites and Discussions at Ritual Crafts School in July of 2022 and is hopeful that these discussions will give the community an outlet to address death anxiety, fears, and awareness about honoring our own death and morality views as a community and is hopeful that through these discussions, we can change the narrative around death and dying in our culture.

[00:02:38] For Carla, thank you so much for being

[00:02:41] Carla: here. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:44] Ashley: Absolutely. Can you tell us how you got started just with your death work.

[00:02:51] Carla: Yeah, for sure. This question is always a broad one and I'm always like Tweaking it to see how I can twiddle it down.

[00:02:58] But maybe the longer version is the better [00:03:00] version of the time But basically I think like going way back in the dial of time I've had a lot of experience with death. So even as a young kid of just close family members passing suddenly and due to illness and so I feel like I was introduced or initiated into the work and just through that experience of losing loved ones.

[00:03:24] And then always having a fundamental curiosity about death and also a fear. I'm not going to lie. I've also, I feared it for most of my life because a lot of the times, especially in my family, you know, death was hush. Like, hey, we're dealing with this is tragic. This isn't. Good. And then I know that there was something more to it, but I too would do the same thing in my growing ages of like, Hey, I don't want to talk about this is uncomfortable.

[00:03:48] This isn't, this doesn't feel good. And then it wasn't until later when I lost my father in 2016 and hit, I will say his death experience and me being a part of that was [00:04:00] definitely the reason why I'm here today and doing a venerated death and trying to normalize the topics of death and dying in community.

[00:04:07] Just because I feel like his death wasn't hand, I didn't like the way that we handled it. I was trying to approach it in a different way, but still deemingly having difficulty normalizing it and making it feel like something that's happening and this is okay and this is normal and this isn't a tragedy.

[00:04:23] This is just. Life. You know, this is a part of life. So I feel like his death definitely initiated me more into like the advocacy of how we're handling death and how we're talking about it in community and how even in the medical system, how that's being handled and how death is part of our humanness.

[00:04:40] And I'm not separate from that, and neither is anyone else around me, even if we're not talking about it necessarily in the forefront, right? And then, so I feel like, yeah the initiation through experiencing death and then my father's death left me wondering about some of the conversations I had with my dad when he was dying.

[00:04:58] I feel like [00:05:00] he... I think the closeness of our relationship being near his deathbed, he told me these stories that were happening to him that were very real, even though I had matter of facts that like, that's not right, you know, that's not actually happening, but there was something in his conversation with me and the things that he was sharing that made me believe that he was sharing his transition.

[00:05:21] Like he was sharing. What was happening to him and his crossing over within day, like within 24 hours of this happening. And later it just really stuck with me. Oh my gosh, like I think I was like, I was in this kind of portal space, like the space with my dad and it didn't feel like anything else.

[00:05:38] And it just inspired me to learn more. So I started reading about books on death. I started reading about near death experiences. I started listening to a ton of podcasts that were about that. And just really wanting to explore. this end of life and that space of this kind of holy ground that the death space is.

[00:05:56] And later I found the Dying Conscious [00:06:00] Institute and I was like, maybe I'll just get a little bit more education, really not knowing what the steps forward were, but just like this curiosity. And then yeah, so that's my journey from here. Wow.

[00:06:11] Ashley: Okay. That's awesome. I wanted to just touch on something you said.

[00:06:15] For some people, and I think this is what you're describing, but if it's not, let me know, but I just wanted to explain that some people who don't really know a lot of, or haven't been around somebody when they're dying, a lot of times when somebody is going through the process of death, they may, it's very normal for them to see or hear their loved ones who have, are already dead.

[00:06:37] I don't know if that's what you meant. Is that what you were talking about?

[00:06:40] Carla: Yes, he was talking to people that weren't there, but he was also telling me a story. He told me a story about what happens when he, his... Oh. Like, he basically was telling me a story about when his oxygen gets low. So my dad died of pulmonary fibrosis, which is when he's scarring in the lungs.

[00:06:59] And [00:07:00] he was telling me about what would happen. I, it was like in this like kind of dream state, I think, but I don't. I think that he knew the difference between what a dream, like a dreamlike state to what reality is. And after now learning a lot more about the dying process and the actual symptoms involved, I think that's just what we do.

[00:07:18] We go more into this dream space and then back into this and because we're transitioning, but yes, talking to loved ones as

[00:07:26] Ashley: well. Okay. Yes. And I have So I worked as a hospice nurse, and then I also do like, deaf doula work. I know when I was working hospice, I had some patients who also, when I knew, it was coming near, they'd be like, Oh, I had this, dream, or I saw something, and I'm like, Oh, tell me about it.

[00:07:42] It was always an interesting thing. And like you said, I knew that, Physically, this had not happened to them, they did not go to this place and they were not walking through this field, but for them, it is real, and I too believe that it is real, I believe that this is what happened, you know, and [00:08:00] it's very, some people say, and in a lot of cultures I think we talked about this in a different episode, but it Like, there's cultures where they believe that,, right now we're, the way we're living is the dream, right?

[00:08:11] And, the other side is reality. So I think that sometimes when people are transitioning and they have that's the state they're going to is, the other reality that we are in shamanism they call it non ordinary reality, but I believe that's the same thing., they're just entering this other world.

[00:08:29] And they are like, on that bridge, that lake, whatever, you know, you believe that it is. And it's so interesting to hear what people say when they're on the edge of that. Because it's like, it's an

[00:08:42] Carla: interesting space. Yeah, I think it was interesting too that my dad, even though my whole, tons of, I have a big family and everyone was with him, but for some reason he wasn't sharing those things with anyone else but me.

[00:08:53] And so when I told like my mom or my brother, they're all like, what? That's crazy. Like, you know, like, no, he didn't. And I was like, yes he did. [00:09:00] And it was he was it was it was a place of belief. Like he was like, this is what I'm experiencing and this is what's happening. And so it was just, yeah, it yeah.

[00:09:09] That's so

[00:09:11] Ashley: yeah, that's so interesting and there's so and a lot of the times you hear these stories And even though people have different cultures and different beliefs a lot of the stories can sound similar so I always like I always love that because I'm like man like if this is When I first started learning these types of things, I was like, it's real like it has to be everybody somebody In Kazakhstan and somebody in Ecuador are having similar, you know, it can't all be fake.

[00:09:38] They don't know each other. Like I just. It's such an interesting thing just in general,

[00:09:45] Carla: If I can share a little bit about what he said, so I would just because of the thread of commonality and also I don't know, I think you introduced this episode being something about the grim reaper.

[00:09:56] And in so many ways, so many, my dad mentioned a black [00:10:00] figure and I have also talked to other people cause I volunteer with hospice giving Reiki and they too. Say something about some type of black figure, like, I don't know if it's like actually like, you know, but it's like that theme or that picture of the grim reaper, but basically my dad had said that when his oxygen gets low he will, he also had said that the nurse that had checked on him right before he told me the story, his fam, like he said, my family, his family owns this hospital and I was like, what do you mean?

[00:10:29] He's like, yeah, his family is from this ancient culture where they do these rituals. And when my oxygen gets low, they they zip me up in a black bag and they take me up to the roof. And on the roof, there's there's TVs on, like, rollers. And then he said, up there, then he said, I'm in a wheelchair.

[00:10:51] And then this black figure comes behind my wheelchair and takes me down the levels. Right. And then he said, back into this [00:11:00] bed. And back into the space where my oxygen goes back to normal. So like, that's, in Jet, I think there was a lot more that he said in there. But in Jet, like he's saying, like, that totally, like, obviously I knew that nurse.

[00:11:13] His family didn't own the hospital, and I even said that. I said, Dad, he's just the nurse. Like, this is, you know. St. Joe's hospital like this. No, like he doesn't own this. He's like, maybe he's like, maybe I'm a teller of lies, but this is true. And I was like, okay. And then that's when he felt like he could, I feel like tell me the story, but it is interesting.

[00:11:31] Even like my research on near death experiences, how people see either during their prep, during that space where they're dead or before they see a black figure somewhere standing in the room or somewhere in there.

[00:11:45] Ashley: That's so good. The near death experience thing is it's so fascinating.

[00:11:50] Like, there's I've read a bunch of different articles and I've read people's accounts, but the one I can think of right now is, I watched, there's like a Netflix special.[00:12:00] I forget the name of it, but it's it's all about the first, two episodes of this Netflix special are about near death experiences, and then they go into, talking about mediumship and stuff, but it's interesting, and the one, a lot of them talk about figures, and I've heard people, and I don't know if this is a Netflix special or somewhere else, but I've heard people talk about, like, yes, there was a dark figure, but they were not afraid of it. Yeah. Yeah, there was, like, it was blackness, but I wasn't nervous or scared, so I knew it was, okay.

[00:12:28] But the one, one, I always remember this one, this guy, he had a near death experience, and he saw his father. And I guess he had always had like a contentious relationship with his father when his father was alive. So he said he always felt bad that he didn't reach out, he felt like the way he needed to reach out to his father and maybe, you know, maybe that would have changed their relationship.

[00:12:54] But it was so interesting that during his near death experience, he like was describing it, I remember he was like in a lake. [00:13:00] And his father walked up to him in this lake and gave him a hug and explained to him like look like I had a rough life and that's not an excuse for the way I treated you, but like I want you to know that like I'm sorry.

[00:13:11] Oh wow. Yeah, they had this like very profound healing moment. Yeah. And he said after that. It completely changed his life. A lot of a lot of people who have near death experience, it can change their life. But, he was like I knew that I had this anger, and then after that all the anger was gone. He started to look, he like became a painter.

[00:13:32] It was very, yeah, it was very neat. Obviously that's not everybody's experience, but it's just when you hear these near death experiences, they're fascinating like what people see and there is a lot of commonality there is a lot of warm light people talk about warm light a lot I was enveloped by warm lights and or I some people say tunnels and bridges and things like that like But yeah, it's very interesting to hear all these different the commonalities between these things.

[00:13:59] Carla: [00:14:00] Right. And it gives me when I am fascinated by it, but also too, because it gives me a sense of like peace that like, Oh, like that doesn't sound so bad. Like that doesn't sound like that sounds like another journey. Like I know, like there's mystery involved, of course, but like, yeah, it sounds like another journey into something else that.

[00:14:17] Doesn't isn't scary. And a lot of times I hear people say that, like, fear, like they're not scared because like fear isn't something on the other side. Like fear is a very human experience is a very human, like symptom and within these bodies that we're living now, but like whatever is on the other side, like doesn't incorporate fear.

[00:14:36] Like there's not like there is like love, but they can't even explain it in the way that we experienced love, you know, but like, it's beautiful. And it's like, it's beautiful. With indescribably beautiful. You know, and it feels like love, but it's something bigger than love. And like, that makes me feel like, Oh my God, like that's out.

[00:14:55] Like it takes away my fear of whatever is next. And that it gives me [00:15:00] more to go off of then, Oh, it's just blackness. Yeah. Or it's just like the end and like, like your life maybe doesn't matter and that this is it. Like, that this physical realm is the only thing we have to go off of and it opens my mind to be like, oh, there's so much more.

[00:15:16] And even more than that, that the people that I have lost and that I love are in some realm still in this experience as well, which gives me peace as well, you know? Yeah,

[00:15:27] Ashley: I love that. Have you ever read The Afterlife of Billy Fingers?

[00:15:30] Carla: I don't think so. I think I've heard of it, but I haven't

[00:15:32] Ashley: read it.

[00:15:33] It's good. It's really good. And in the book, so the book is based on this woman who her brother passes away. He had, like, a very, like, tormented existence, I would describe it as. Like, it seemed like he was like, all over the place. He suffered from a drug addiction. He had a lot of issues.

[00:15:50] Homelessness, like, a lot of problems. She, at some point, had almost like giving up on her brother because she like said she had tried to help him But it just never nothing seemed to [00:16:00] work with him. So she was disappointed blah blah, but she starts getting messages from her brother.

[00:16:05] This is a completely true story She starts to get messages from her brother and he describes the whole process of him after he died what was happening Wow, it was yeah, and he describes that profound peace and love he's like I can't explain it But it's the biggest thing I've ever felt, and people talk about, and you think, and if you try to think about it, conceptualize it, you think about the fact that and people will be like, this is morbid, but don't worry, I'll put a trigger warning at the beginning of the episode, but I'll be like, but when you die, You have nothing to worry about that's there's nothing left to worry.

[00:16:42] There's no bills There's no, you know having to pick somebody up having to get somewhere like you have to get groceries You're just dying so you at that point and I think that's what it's good The whole like and we'll get talk about the death positive movement in a minute but a lot of death doulas [00:17:00] and things like that are coming forward because I think introducing people to that piece before It's the key is it because it's it is very scary when you don't know what's gonna happen and obviously I None of us are 100 percent sure of what's going to happen, right?

[00:17:16] But like I have a very strong feeling and Carla does too then everything's gonna be fine and When you can start to introduce that piece to people and start helping them let go now It makes it so much easier when the time really does come For them not to have any fear and for them to completely, leave with no anxiety.

[00:17:38] That brings me now to for people who don't know what, the death positive movement is, because people, I've seen people online be like, You can't call

[00:17:47] Carla: it

[00:17:47] Ashley: positive! Death isn't positive! And I'm like, yeah, I know! But you guys aren't getting what we're trying to say! Like, like! Right. Yeah, so if you wanna just touch on that.

[00:17:55] Yeah!

[00:17:56] Carla: Obviously, I think There's many perspectives, but I guess the one that [00:18:00] I go off of that makes me feel good about saying death positive, right, is that I think that hook of changing The way we're relating with death, and the way that we're taking care of death, and the way that we're making decisions around death within our families and our personal lives, but also extending out to our communities, is like changing that narrative.

[00:18:19] Of changing, hey, like, we are all gonna die, and it's not negative, and it's not bad, and it's not good. It's not good or bad, right? It's not, and it's not even gray. It's just part of the thread of life. We were born, we live, and we die. Sort of the initiation into being born is the fact that we're going to die and everyone around you is going to die.

[00:18:39] So it's like, how do we make, build community around that? How do we have advocacy around dying and how do we take care of each other? Is really how I feel like the death positive movement is, or has Strong. My interest even before being in this work is like, Oh, yeah, you're right. There are people that are thinking outside the box here being like, Oh, we don't [00:19:00] have to die this way.

[00:19:01] If it doesn't feel good, if it's impeding on your grief, if it's making you feel like you're dying without options, then there's a different way. And I think that's what the death positive and the advocacy around that is saying, Hey, we don't have to hide our dead. We can a dead body is not morbid.

[00:19:17] It's not gross. A dead body is. A dead body. And I think you probably know this and, but it's always interesting to me to think that the way that we handled death as far as like the funeral home and being embalmed and all of these very like checklist things that people really don't know that isn't, that there's other options is relatively new, like that's just, that's a new way of handling death and before that we were as a community handling it and keeping our dead at home and caring for them.

[00:19:46] And giving them blessings and giving them ceremony and giving them ritual and making that a transition initiation for them into what's next and us, the initiation of the loss that the family tree has now [00:20:00] experienced or the friendship or whatever that person was to you is like this honoring of how in community do we honor this.

[00:20:07] So I feel like the death positive movement is helping us know our options, knowing that we don't have like. Legally, like some of the things people think that Oh, I have to take my, my, my dead loved one to the funeral home within moments. And there is like so much of a rush on when someone dies, okay, we have to get them to the morgue.

[00:20:29] We have to go, we have to go. And I not speaking poorly on what the medical field has to do, because I don't know that realm. I'm not a medical professional, but I do think that yeah. We can slow down a little bit and

[00:20:41] Ashley: it's not much. I promise. Yeah.

[00:20:44] Carla: It's like we slow down, like we can take our time.

[00:20:47] We can have a breath here and say like, wow, like this just happened. And we can honor that in many different ways that feel good religiously or not religiously speaking. And I think that the [00:21:00] reframe our minds around what our options

[00:21:03] Ashley: are. Yes, because also people don't realize that the death positive movement is helping people be able to grieve better.

[00:21:14] Yeah, the grief process, the way, exactly what you're describing, it's not working at this point. Okay., so we go to, you go to the funeral home, you have a funeral in three or four days or whatever the process is. And then. That's it. And then you have to go back to work in two days and you are upset like so that's normal And it's totally okay to grieve for as long as you need to but when with the death positive movement We're saying like let's make like you just said let's make room for ritual.

[00:21:45] Ritual is there to help us grieve That's the whole point of it. We have these we have there's lots of and I've talked about this before in my culture, there's like a seven day funeral, there's a lot of different rituals, there's a lot of different [00:22:00] ceremonies, and it's all meant to get all your feelings out, that's the whole point.

[00:22:05] It's to talk, to, you have all these people, you have to talk about your feelings every day, you get to cry sometimes, you're laughing sometimes, you're eating, you're drinking, but you're in community, and you're expressing yourself, and it's trying to make your grief journey. easier. So because I can hear, I hear people say death can't be positive, especially with somebody's child or and of course we all understand.

[00:22:30] I'm not saying it's positive, but what we are saying is that we want to make the healing process, the grieving process easier for everybody. So that they can navigate it the way they want instead of feeling all this pressure like I have to get over it now and yeah, I have to just do it and be no you don't have to get over anything You can grieve as long as you need to Whatever is best for you.

[00:22:54] However, you feel is valid And all we're saying is we want to make a beautiful ritual to [00:23:00] guide this the person who's died guide them on to their next journey and for you to be able to start your process of grieving and

[00:23:09] Carla: healing right and taking that not only the death and what have the experience of the death but also the grief That's impacting the community out of it out into the open.

[00:23:19] It's like, yes, we're gonna die. We, everyone thinks about it, even if they're not talking about it. At some point everyone's oh my god, I'm gonna die, you know, and like It can fill in many different ways and the point isn't necessarily to be like not to have fear or not to have anxiety But to recognize that oh I had, you know, that's an experience I'm gonna have and of course I have feelings that are attached to that and then also my person just died and that, you know, that has an an enormous amount of feelings and enormous amount of experience.

[00:23:49] And also how we handle that, but also how are we going to help each other? I believe in so many ways that grief is a communal, like as a community [00:24:00] endeavor, it's a community. I think that, and so like everyone comes together, you know, everyone comes together for that. And it's this is a loss that we have and it affects the thread.

[00:24:10] Of the community, not just the one person. And so the way we do death sometimes, or at least in my own experience, I'm not even saying point in the finger. It's out there. I've experienced this with very close loved ones where it was like, man, that this is hard to take, but it's hard to take because I can't talk about it the way that it feels like I'm not able to voice it.

[00:24:29] I don't have an outlet to be held in my experience because we're just doing the checklist of things. My loved one died. He went to the morgue. We're. Now meeting with the funeral home Getting this menu of options of things to do, but we're not even in our right brains to be making decisions. And it's, yeah, they're sympathetic, but it also feels cold.

[00:24:50] And it also feels oh my God, this isn't in alignment with my values, but more so not in alignment. Of the values of the way my loved one lived, but we're still going to do this [00:25:00] because this is the easiest route and we don't have the capability to think much further and then we go into the grief stage and yeah, I get my two weeks bereavement time and then I'm supposed to be healed and better and also feeling very guilty over the time of having to take a time out of life.

[00:25:16] Yes, right. And I'm saying this all like in a negative sense, but it is a negative thing because it does more harm. Then good on the human live under those conscious, like those confined bases of reality that aren't really reality in a way society saying, this is how we do it. And this is the way that you're groomed to behave underneath these constructs.

[00:25:43] And I feel as being a participant in that construct, it has done more harm on my psyche and my overall wellbeing than it has done good. And so that's my whole, I guess going back to my whole mission or my whole way or my reason or my [00:26:00] why is that like I doubt with that and I'm still healing from that.

[00:26:04] And I feel like I have a voice now to say, Hey, like we can do this differently. And I so badly want people, all of us just to be like, yes, you know, let's do it differently. And then I'm realizing like, Oh, not everyone's ready yet. Like, and that's okay. And it's fine. It's not like, you know, I just feel like the more that we Understand the death positive movement that isn't new.

[00:26:26] It's been around since the 60s. Yeah, it's not new The more that we can leave little trails of like, you know openings to be like, oh we have options And it's not morbid to talk about it. It actually is just as important as talking about birth Or needing to do your taxes every year or any big event that brings you into a moment of a living moment, as Ram Dass says.

[00:26:52] I love when he says that. Like the living moments that mean like the most impactful on your life's journey. We should talk about, we should plan [00:27:00] about it. We should understand it. We should take it out of the closet and say, Hey, let's deal with this now. So that when it comes. We're able to know that maybe we didn't get everything we wanted, but at least we got some because we asked for it and we understood and we took the time out of our lives to think about it, you know?

[00:27:17] Ashley: Yes. That's so true, it's a hard thing for people to talk about. But I think in our culture, once we can get to a place where , Okay, this is a thing that is gonna happen, and at least if we start discussing it ahead of time. Especially with like I saw you had your, you, on Instagram you had a whole notebook for an advanced planning, workshop.

[00:27:38] Yeah, advanced planning is so important, like that's, that means talking about, you know, what you want and how you want it before it happens. It's so important, and of course everybody hates it, nobody wants to talk about it, cause you're like, I don't want to think about that. Of course you don't, but We're all people and like you said you're gonna you're born death is the second biggest event in your life, right?

[00:27:59] You were born [00:28:00] and then you die like it's huge

[00:28:05] Yeah, it's really important to get your wishes written down and if you find that one day you're like, I don't know what to do and Blah, blah, blah. You can contact somebody like Carla, you can contact me, and we can help you figure out and tell you what your options are. That's the whole point of deaf doulas and deaf midwives, is we aren't lawyers, we aren't psychologists, but we are here to explain to you what your options are.

[00:28:30] Like Carla had said, there's a lot of things funeral homes will tell you, and this is not to bash funeral homes at all, but there's a lot of things they'll say this, but some things you don't have to do, and you might not want that. That's okay. And, that's the whole point of the whole Death Duelist stuff, is that we're here to explain those things to you and help you out with that.

[00:28:48] Right.

[00:28:49] Carla: That's something that you said brought back, this idea of, the way I think about it, the death positive movement, and actually making change, or making, You know, an impact in the community as so [00:29:00] far as like shifting the narrative around that death isn't to be ignored, but death isn't also to be feared, it's something of life it's okay, is like this onion effect that comes to my mind of like, when I'm doing my own sort of grapplings with how, my, what my perspectives are, and getting to a place of this is normal, this is okay, is like taking back like, alright, I, the, here's the nectar of that, right?

[00:29:23] The center of the onion is, I'm gonna die. And then there's all these things on top of it that you have to take time to peel back and be like are these fears actually coming from me and the, like the actual, you know, nectar of that I'm going to die. Is that fear from me? Like, did I create that?

[00:29:40] Or has it just been told down to me? Through so many years and so many even before my lifetime even from my ancestors and how society has gone And then like peeling back like where do I redefine my relationship with my own death? And sometimes it's letting go of those extra [00:30:00] layers of what has been told to me about death or has been told to me about how we're handling death or what my options are.

[00:30:07] And then it's like, Oh, I can create this relationship. If I'm afraid of it, then what needs to change so I can look at

[00:30:14] Ashley: it? Right? Yeah. Yes. Okay. That's been great. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk, we're gonna go to our next section, so we're gonna talk about our dish of the week. So this week I was like, what could we talk about?

[00:30:29] We're talking about death stuff. So I found lists of celebrities last meals. And I was like, this is interesting. Yeah. Alright, so first celebrity we have is Kirk Cobain. His last meal was root beer and some cigarettes. So he didn't eat the cigarettes I don't think, but that's what he had with his root beer.

[00:30:51] Cleopatra had a whole basket, I don't know how big the basket was, of figs. She really liked figs, apparently. Elvis [00:31:00] Presley had four scoops of ice cream with some chocolate cookies. Ooh. Okay. John Lennon had a corned beef sandwich. Abraham Lincoln had mock turtle soup. I don't know what that is. Me neither.

[00:31:15] Yeah, it's fine. Rose Virginia fowl with chestnut stuffing. I don't know. That sounds like an old timey delicacy. I don't know what that is. Baked yams and cauliflower with cheese. Okay. Julia Child had French onion soup, which if she made it, it was probably delicious. Cause she's Julia Childs. And Marilyn Monroe had stuffed mushrooms.

[00:31:36] I like a stuffed mushroom. And meatballs. Okay. Ernest Hemingway had a New York strip steak, Caesar salad, and a baked potato and a glass of red wine. Michael Jackson had healthy spinach salad. I don't know why they put that there, but okay. He had spinach salad and chicken breast. That sounds bland, everybody's up to what they want.

[00:31:59] [00:32:00] Whitney Houston had a hamburger and a turkey sandwich. And a side of fries, champagne, and a Heineken. Oh, champagne and a Heineken, you're gonna get bubble gut. I know, right? Yeah, I was like, ooh. Princess Di, she had Dover sole, again, I didn't get to look what that was, but that's fine. Vegetable tempura and mushroom and asparagus omelet at the Ritz Carlton in Paris.

[00:32:23] And Napoleon Bonaparte had liver and bacon chops, sautéed kidneys, shirred Eggs and garlic toast with roast tomatoes. That doesn't sound appetizing.

[00:32:37] Carla: But, yeah. Can I eat that again?

[00:32:40] Ashley: I know. That's like, that's probably like 18 something, but he like, I don't know what sherd eggs are, but the garlic toast is the only thing I would eat out of that.

[00:32:49] I don't know what kidneys, I don't know what kind of kidneys they were, and for what. Yeah, no thank you. That's okay. Okay, so this is the part of the show where I'm going to plug myself really quick. [00:33:00] So if you're enjoying this show, you can just keep following me and subscribe on whichever podcasting platform you enjoy We are dying with the divine on Instagram and Facebook Feel free to come and give us a follow if you really like the show I would so so appreciate if you gave us a rating Five stars is always appreciated, but whatever you want to do it Or you give us a little review that helps the show a lot and you can give me a tip if you so choose That's in the show notes.

[00:33:27] You can give me a couple dollars if you want If you have any questions comments, suggestions, please feel free to email me at dinewiththedivinepod at gmail dot com. Okay, so on to tea time. So this is where we're going to learn something together. And today we're going to learn about psychopumps. Since we have a death doula here, this is literally her job.

[00:33:54] But this is, so psychopumps are also this spiritual Kind of the [00:34:00] psychopomp is the spiritual definition of this title. So let me explain this to you So as per a Wikipedia article because we love a Wikipedia over here Psychopomp is from the Greek word. I forget how it's broken up, but don't worry about it means the literal meaning is the guiding of souls and Psychopomps are either creatures spirits angels deities and in many religions just different spiritual entities Who their whole responsibility is to escort newly deceased souls from Earth to the afterlife.

[00:34:33] Oh, here's my breakdown of the word. So the word pomps, it's P O M P O S. I'm not saying pump, I'm saying pomp. I used to say psychopomp, it's wrong. It's pomp. It means a conductor or guide, and then the psyche is the breath, life, soul, or mind. So there's been stories throughout every single culture, mythological different texts, religious texts, sacred narratives, and real life stories of people around the world who [00:35:00] act as psychopumps.

[00:35:01] As I said, death doulas, death midwives are literally living psychopumps because they are helping people to go through the death process and in situations where somebody's actively dying, a lot of the time they're there guiding the person or the family. Explaining, you know, what's going on, what to be expected, and all that good stuff.

[00:35:22] So that's literally their job. In many different cultures and religious texts, like I just said, we have psychopomps. One that everybody may be a little bit familiar with is Anubis. Anubis is from ancient Egypt. He's the I think Anubis has a dog head. He is the guy, dog headed guy with the scales.

[00:35:41] Remember, and he has to put like a feather. I think the story goes, you have to put a feather and your heart on the scale, and if your heart is heavier than a feather, it means you are not a good person, but if your heart was lighter than a feather, it means you were a good person, and then you can go to the cool place, and I think if it's not that good, you have to go to like, the not as cool place, [00:36:00] but it's not like hell, it's just not as fun, I'm not sure, I don't remember, I gotta brush up on my mythology with ancient Greece, ancient Egypt.

[00:36:08] So then we have also Shiva, and Shiva is in Hinduism, and Shiva, as we know in Hinduism, these, the different big gods, they have different avatars, so one of Shiva's avatars is a psychopomp. And the avatar I think is Tarakasaura, in Hinduism, is, has the role of guiding people to the afterlife. And also, they are messenger, a lot of, also the people guiding Souls to the afterlife the deities are also messengers and you see that with Hermes is Greek.

[00:36:45] He is a God. He's the one with the wings on his shoes He's a messenger God, but also the God who guides people to the afterlife once they get to the afterlife They see Chiron who's the ferryman. The ferry is [00:37:00] a common commonality in a lot of In a lot of different cultures you see people have to cross a river.

[00:37:08] Oh That's it. And in Egypt, it's the River Styx. Or no, that's it. That's Greece. Anyway, sorry, let me shut up. I don't remember. In Roman mythology, you have the god Mercury. The Norse Valkyries are guiding people to the afterlife, Valhalla, and the other places. The Aztec, I can't say it, but I'm gonna spell it.

[00:37:31] X O L O T L. And this particular god I know shows up With dogs. I know in Aztec mythology, dogs herald in people to the afterlife. And the dogs literally guide you. Isn't that cute? I was like, that's so adorable. You just see like cute little dogs and you just go with them. That makes me happy. In Slavic mythology, it's Morana.

[00:37:56] And in Crustan, it's Vance. [00:38:00] And then in Chinese folk religion, we got Hebei Wuchang. Which literally means black and white impermanent. So this is like a deity that there are two deities and they show the different parts of the underworld and Japanese mythology there's Shin Higami, and they have been described as psychopomps.

[00:38:21] There's also and I cannot remember I can't find it when I did my when I did my like death midwife training shout out to like the death wives We learned about this little, this character, and I believe it was in Japanese. It's like Japanese Buddhist mythology. And it was big on guiding the, big on guiding children and infants into the afterlife.

[00:38:48] There are some, oh, also Frau Frau Bertha in German, Germanic mythology. She guides children. [00:39:00] That's like her thing, is always, Children who have passed away too early and infants. That's like her whole job is like taking children. So it's really sweet Persian Tradition or Zoroastrian present a tradition we have Dana Islam you have the angel Azrael who's the angel of death and in Christianity there's st.

[00:39:24] Peter who's usually at the pearly gates They say Michael is the one who guides people to the afterlife and also Jesus Christ people do that and then in like Ashanti tradition, my tradition, we have a fairy, we, our tradition, we have like, okay, you're supposed to bury your dead with like toiletries, literally, like they're going on a trip.

[00:39:46] I think I talked about this before. Yeah, you literally have to, like, bury them with, like, toothbrush, toothpaste, that kind of stuff, like clothes, a towel, soap, because they're seen as going on a trip, right? So when they go to this river, and there's a guy [00:40:00] named Amoshe there, and Amoshe is the ferryman. Yeah, and they also have to bury you with some money.

[00:40:04] So you give him the money. He helps you carry your stuff across the river. I guess if you don't have money you have to try to get across the river yourself, and I think it's really hard. I'm not sure, but I just know that he's there. He picks you up. He gets your stuff for you and takes you to the afterlife.

[00:40:20] I read this too, and I thought this was fascinating. The Aurora Borealis for Inuit people, they believe that the Aurora Borealis can be seen, they are the, Spirits of the dead souls that are living like in Aurora Borealis. I thought that was so cool. I never read that before Yeah, and then in Australian like aboriginal mythology.

[00:40:45] There is a bar noom beer, which is a Spirit that guides souls across the island of the living dead now There are a lot of animals too. They consider [00:41:00] psychopomps birds That makes sense, right? Because birds fly. People would think they're flying high, they're flying up. They're psychopomps. Dogs, like I just talked about.

[00:41:10] Dolphins. In Australian and Greco Roman cultures, they believe that dolphins are taking people to the afterlife. And that makes sense, too, because dolphins guide people to safety. Right? And they would, yeah, they would guide ships to safety. So you would think horses. I've heard that. Oh, here's that Japanese one.

[00:41:30] It's called Jizzo. Jizzo. Okay. I found it. Yay. Sometimes I write things down and I forgot I wrote them down. Jizzo is a Bodhisattva. Bodhisattva. We've talked about Bodhisattvas before. Bodhisattvas are spirits that have achieved enlightenment in Buddhism. But they stay on earth instead of going to like, the happy place.

[00:41:54] Because they want to help people. So Jizzo is this entity. [00:42:00] That has already achieved nirvana. He knows how to be totally happy, but he stays on earth to guide Children and particularly who have died and take care of them to the other side So in some Asian cultures if somebody Japanese I think if a child has died they'll take like a they'll take a Jizo statue and put it like somewhere nice like in their garden or something And be offering it stuff, like, especially if, yeah, if they've had a child who's passed away.

[00:42:34] So they're like, hey Gizzo, can you come pick my kid up and like, take care of it? And it's very sweet and beautiful and I love that. And then we have Persephone, who was Hades wife, the queen of the Underworld. She also helps people get across. And Persephone is a warm welcome to the Underworld.

[00:42:52] And she is beautiful and sweet and all that good stuff. Okay. Last but not least, we have our [00:43:00] story time. So story time today is a little short because I couldn't find more about this guy. But, we're gonna, I didn't know this either. So this is the this is where the Grim Reaper comes from. I had no idea.

[00:43:14] The Grim Reaper, the entity that it is comes from Brittany, which is that part of France that's like, All Celtic stuff. So they believe in the, like, the Celts were there and back and forth, okay? Just remember that. So his name is Ancu. So Ancu comes from the souls of, Ancu comes for the souls of those who are about to die.

[00:43:38] A true shapeshifter, he appears in many guise, including a tall, thin man with a long hooded cloak, or a skeleton with a scythe, who often wears a broad brimmed hat. He generally travels on foot. But sometimes comes in a carriage which is pulled by four black horses. This is literally the Grim Reaper [00:44:00] character.

[00:44:00] In some places he's described as a man. Some people he's, some places he's described as being just a skeleton. And he's always wearing a hooded cloak. Comes to us from Brittany. He is not, some cultures they like, the Psycho Pump represents death. Or something like that. They have gods that literally represent death.

[00:44:20] He doesn't represent death. He's just death's servant. So he is the one to help people go across. He is a scary looking psychopomp though. Because skeletons are generally not something you want to see. Ever. Yeah. Unless it's Halloween and unless it's supposed to be like a fun spooky thing. But that's the whole point.

[00:44:40] It's spooky. So there's like two tales on how Anku became Anku. So the first was that he was a person who died New Year's Eve around New Year's Eve. And the thought was that the person who dies closest to New Year's Eve was the person who was gonna serve death for the [00:45:00] whole next year. Which is interesting.

[00:45:03] I don't know, I never heard that. So the second way they think that Anku became the death servant was that He was this guy, there was this guy, and he was a jerk, and he was rich, and he really loved to hunt. He was on his, he was on his land one day, he had a big land, he had a big house, all that kind of stuff.

[00:45:24] He was in his own personal forest, and he was hunting. And he saw a beautiful white stag, and he's like, I gotta get that stag. Now, according to Celtic tradition, again, we're in Brittany, but it's Celtic. According to Celtic tradition, white animals, especially stags, were affiliated with the sacred and you weren't to kill them, you weren't to bother them at all.

[00:45:47] But, this guy, he had a lot of hubris and he was like, I'm gonna do this. He didn't care, and he was like, I'm gonna go after this stag. So he starts chasing the stag, and then he sees a figure in black on a white [00:46:00] horse, also chasing the stag. So he stops, and he's like, Excuse me, sir. This is my land.

[00:46:08] And the guy was like, okay, and what's your problem? And he's like, that's my stag. I don't, you better not try to get my stag. And he's like, okay let's do this. Let's make a bet. Whoever gets the stag, whoever can get the stag first gets to decide, gets to keep it. And gets to decide the fate of the other person.

[00:46:29] So because this guy's like a big jerk, he's like, yeah, whatever. I'm gonna, he thinks he's gonna get it. The hooded guy and the rich guy, they start chasing the stag. The hooded guy gets the stag and, shoots him with an arrow or whatever. And now the rich guy's really pissed off. So the rich guy then calls his buddies to grab this guy who was on the horse.

[00:46:51] And they grab him. And the rich guy says, now I'm taking the stag and I'm taking you. And the hooded guy laughed [00:47:00] because he was like a spiritual entity, but he didn't know that. This hooded guy laughs and he's like, you want that deer so bad? You can have that deer. And since you like hunting so much, you can hunt for souls for the rest of your life.

[00:47:11] And he instantly turns into a skeleton, and with a hooded figure. And his whole job is to go get people. So that's horrifying, but that's part of the story. Yeah, they think that actually, back in the day, the ancient manifestation of Anku was actually a female, but at some point it just changed to be a man.

[00:47:29] So the, also the theory behind it, the mythology behind it, is if you hear his cart, you must hide. Because if you look him in the face, you're gonna die. Instantly. Or if he touches you, you're gonna die instantly, so you gotta run. If you don't want him to bother you. And they think now, in modern times, He's probably not carrying a horse around, that's pretty noticeable.

[00:47:52] They think he's now driving a hearse instead of a wooden cart. So that's probably what works best for him. And people say that it's [00:48:00] best to stay away from him in the Yule season. That he is out and about in the cold. Which also, if you think about it, makes sense, right? Like, in ancient times, when did people die?

[00:48:11] When it was cold. Because it was too cold and because they couldn't heat their house or whatever. That's probably why he's around. And there's not, maybe there wasn't enough food or whatever. That's the origins of the Grim Reaper. Sounds just about as scary as you think it is. But he's not scary.

[00:48:27] Nowhere in anything I read was like, he's mean. Cause that's not what it was. It was just like, this is just his job. Kinda like we were talking about before. We're like, cyclical. Death is part of life. This is just a matter of fact. Same thing for Anku. He's like, I literally, I'm not judging anybody.

[00:48:42] I don't want to kill anybody. I, this is just my job. I don't know what else to tell ya. Yeah, it's like, I can't do anything else except this. This is my job forever. That is the story of Anku. Huh, okay. Now, we come towards the end of our [00:49:00] show. Carla, thank you so much for being here.

[00:49:04] Thank you for chit chatting about death positive stuff. And all that good stuff. And if you don't mind, if you want to tell people where they can find you, where you would like to be found on the internet.

[00:49:17] Carla: Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram at AveneratedDeath. I think it is an underscore after A and after Avenerated.

[00:49:25] So I post a lot of stuff there. I post most of my offerings too on there. So if I have things going on virtually or in person, I usually post it on there. And then I also have a website, AveneratedDeath. com, where you can see more of my, my goods and also offerings and a little bit more about me.

[00:49:41] So feel free to connect with me on either one of those. My email is Carla at AveneratedDeath. com as well. So I'm also available through that avenue as well.

[00:49:51] Ashley: Yay! Thank you so much for being here and chatting with us. And again, everybody, thank you guys for [00:50:00] listening. This is Dying with the Divine. If you'd like, I've been listening to the show for an hour, and I don't know what it is.

[00:50:04] Now you know. You can find us on Instagram or Facebook at Dying with the Divine. If you enjoy the show, please give us a rating. It helps so much. And if you want to follow me, Ashley, I'm at SankofaHS, that's S A N K O F A H S, and I'm Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. All the links to Karla's different stuff and everything is always going to be in the show notes if you want to check it out.

[00:50:32] And yeah, thanks again for being here and I'll see you all next week. Thanks! Bye! Thank you! Bye!