Hades, His Rivers and His Queen with Jamie Waggoner

Jamie

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[00:00:00]

[00:00:05] Jamie: Woof, woof!

[00:00:06] Ashley: time with the divine. I'm your host, Ashley, and today we'll be diving into the magical, the mystical and everything in between on today's episode. We'll be talking about, the Greek God of the underworld and another very famous love story that we all know and love. And we'll get to it later. So today we have an absolutely fantastic guest as usual. We have Jamie Wagoner. Author of Hades, Myth, Magic, and Modern Devotion. Jamie is a student of philosophy, spirituality, mysticism, and the occult. And as a pagan high priestess and community leader, she creates transformative workshops, rituals, sacred circles, and learning programs for many people of all faiths.

[00:00:49] Many spiritual backgrounds and skeptics too. She is a certified level one trainer in Kenyan non violence conflict reconciliation. She [00:01:00] to carry forward the spirit of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 's leadership and non violent activism in her life, projects, and relationships. Janie, how are you doing today?

[00:01:11] Jamie: doing really good. Thank you so much for inviting me, Ashley. It's nice to meet you.

[00:01:15] Ashley: Yeah, it's nice to meet you too. so I like to always ask everybody, how did you get to this place in your journey? Yeah. How did you get here? Yeah.

[00:01:27] Jamie: It's a great question. When I was in college, which was back in the late 90s I was a philosophy major. And I was very interested in feminism and feminist theory, and for one of my projects during my senior year, I studied sort of the reemergence of goddess traditions and earth based spirituality that was really going on at that point in time.

[00:01:49] There were folks like Starhawk. And like Carol P. Christ and Diane Stein and lots of older like feminists that were very active at that point in time. And I was fascinated by [00:02:00] their work. So I, my academic studies followed them for a while. And eventually I just fell in love with the goddess myself.

[00:02:09] And And decided that I wanted to follow a path of paganism. My first experience in working with gods and deities was actually with a group called the Sisterhood of Avalon. I belonged to that group for 13 years. And we worked. With the goddesses of the Welsh pantheon. The Welsh mythology that's in the Maba Noian.

[00:02:30] So that was my first that was how I grew up in, in paganism and and witchcraft and magic and things like that. In 2016, I had an opportunity to serve on a ritual facilitation team for a week long camp that was a reclaiming based camp. One of Starhawk's camps and the theme for the week was Persephone's Descent and those of us on the planning team, we decided that each of us were going to take a role from the [00:03:00] story and really study that deeply and bring that together.

[00:03:02] Particular energy of the story to camp and I just waited till last to pick like who I was going to work with And nobody had picked poor Hades He was like the last poor little kid on the playground that hadn't been picked for the team. I was a like I said, I've, I'd worked with a lot of Welsh goddesses, especially Ceredwen is very near and dear to my heart, who if you're familiar with Ceredwen, she's a tough love mom.

[00:03:27] She's very earthy and chthonic herself. So working with a a chthonic underworld deity didn't really intimidate me that much. And so I was like I'll do Hades. I'll pick Hades. And Now it's 2024 and I've written a book about him. Yeah.

[00:03:46] Ashley: Very cool. Yes, you have this book and I started, I did not get to read the whole thing before we did this interview, which is a shame. But I started parts of it and I really like how now I just want to [00:04:00] ask you the beginning, so I know like the beginning of every chapter. Is that like a channel message that you have from Hades in the

[00:04:06] Jamie: Yeah. A huge part of my own spiritual practice is engaging in transcribing. Trans journey and to write the book what you're referring to is there's a narrative portion at the beginning of each chapter and it's written in first person in Hades voice and it gives it, it gives him a chance to retell his story to us.

[00:04:23] And so part of my preparations for the book involved many hours of trans journey and talking to him and asking him, would you please tell me your story in your own words and tell me what you want. People who are reading it today, in this day and age, to know about you. And then I would come out of the trans journey and furiously scribble down everything that I remembered him saying as fast as I possibly could.

[00:04:48] So that I could type it up, into my manuscript the next day. Yeah. It's One of the great pleasures of writing this book was spending that time and conversation with him.

[00:04:58] Ashley: and there's a lot. It's really [00:05:00] interesting and really cool. And I think it's also very cool because there's not a lot about

[00:05:06] Even,

[00:05:07] Even in like, historical texts, not a ton. Like, it's like Hades was there and he was Zeus's brother. And then this whole thing went down with Persephone and that's

[00:05:20] Jamie: Yeah. Hades is not, he does not have a central myth of his own. The most mentioned that he gets is in the story of the abduction of Persephone, and that's the inciting event and the Homeric hym to demeanor. So it's actually a hymn about the goddess demeanor. It's not really about burse.

[00:05:36] Yeah, it's not really about Persephone and Hades, although that's like the big, like, action that happens at the beginning of the story. That's an allegory for the changing of the seasons. It's really, not so much about them. But, It's, yeah, it's really interesting because he's a background character.

[00:05:52] He's always there. The underworld is always there. And sometimes heroes have to journey to the underworld to talk to [00:06:00] dead relatives or to get advice or to, in the case of Heracles or Hercules, as he's you have to, one of his tasks was to go to the underworld and capture Hades his dog Kerberos or Cerberus.

[00:06:11] So there's a lot of he makes appearances like almost like little cameos where he's walks on stage for a minute and is off again. To find him was really interesting. And, in the book I go through many different sources from. Homer and Hesiod, the great poets of the ancient world, but also I go through philosophy and artwork and sculpture and inscriptions that are written, in ancient ruins and things like that.

[00:06:36] Cause you really have to, you have to find all these little bits and pieces and put them together to try to get a picture of a God who is known for being the unseen one.

[00:06:50] Ashley: There you go. He was hiding, because he did a good

[00:06:52] Jamie: Yeah, and there's not a lot of mention even in just like cultural sources if you're learning about ancient Greece or ancient Rome, because there [00:07:00] was a superstition in the ancient world that you didn't want to, you didn't want to say, you didn't want to call Hades by name. You didn't want to talk about him too much or anything like that because you didn't really want to draw death closer to you.

[00:07:10] Yeah. guys. So that's why he's often referred to like euphemistically, like the unseen one or the notorious one or the wealthy one, like that. So yeah.

[00:07:22] Ashley: And I find that so fascinating on the fact that like, first of all, Greek mythology is so well documented

[00:07:28] even like, which we'll talk about in a little bit, even like their practices and like all these rivers and

[00:07:37] going where

[00:07:38] area, like all

[00:07:41] still like well documented.

[00:07:44] They're

[00:07:44] go here if you do this but then like when it comes to the person who's supposed to be in charge down there, they're like, not talk

[00:07:53] Jamie: the underworld. Yeah. They the underworld in like many ancient sources is it's pretty, it's pretty fleshed out. You can [00:08:00] really get an idea of the different What is believed about the underworld, the place, as far as like the different water systems, the different areas where mortal shades dwell between lifetimes.

[00:08:11] And there's a lot of beings down there too, that have a lot of different tasks and jobs assigned to them. And sometimes people aren't really like aware of all of that. There's a big division of labor going on down there. Yeah.

[00:08:23] Ashley: Yeah, there's a lot going on. I did a class a couple of months ago called the mythology of death. And like, I talked about a little bit about Greek mythology and I

[00:08:33] was so much, so many areas. I was like,

[00:08:36] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:08:36] Ashley: it was only one part of the class. So I couldn't even dive as deep as I wanted to, but I was

[00:08:40] I was

[00:08:42] Jamie: the, in the book that, the book Hades that's out now there's a chapter about the underworld where I talk about him one of his epithets is host of many, which means he, hosts everyone in his realm between lifetimes. And I talk about the different areas of the underworld a little bit, but I feel like I could probably write a whole nother book [00:09:00] about the underworld itself because, there's just, there's a lot to get into.

[00:09:04] Mhm.

[00:09:05] Ashley: is. And you're like, okay, like this is actually wild. Yeah, so great. Of course, you know all about that. And we're going to talk more about it a little bit later. But yeah it's really fascinating. And like you said, there's a lot of people who have a lot of jobs. There's a lot of people doing things and passing by and walking around.

[00:09:22] It's like,

[00:09:23] Jamie: Yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty active place down there. I think there's like a misconception that I, I think people, like there's a portion of the Underworld called the Asphodel Fields, which is where most mortals go when they die. And it's neither good nor bad.

[00:09:37] You just hang out there. In the book, I liken it to like waiting at the airport. Yeah. to catch your plane, you're hanging out, wait, you're not, there's not a lot to do, just waiting between lifetimes. And sometimes the poets of the ancient world describe that as a place where like shades are just aimlessly drifting around.

[00:09:53] And I think that's, that, that kind of vision of the underworld, great, I gained a lot of prevalence. [00:10:00] And people don't really realize that there, that's just one little piece of what's happening down there. Yeah.

[00:10:05] Ashley: Yeah. It is really interesting. Okay, so we are gonna go to our dish of the week and we're gonna talk about yeah, we like to pick a dish. And since we're talking about Hades, I'm gonna be real stereotypical with everything today. Good times. We're gonna pick this is a dish. It's a greek dish.

[00:10:25] There we go it's called it's greek meatballs in pomegranate sauce

[00:10:29] Jamie: Oh, that sounds yummy.

[00:10:31] Ashley: yeah, it does There's this and I could not remember the name of the dish and I probably will find it and link it in the show notes There's because there's a persian restaurant about an hour away from me. It's very good. They have this like this pomegranate Like stew, it's like vegetarian.

[00:10:49] There's like cashew nuts, I believe in it. It's delicious. It's so thick and rich and you really can't eat a lot of it, but it is so good. So I'm a fan of pomegranates and [00:11:00] savory foods, and I'm usually not a fan of like fruits and savory foods, but. Pomegranates, it's delicious. These are Greek meatballs, and I'll tell you all how to make them in one second.

[00:11:09] When the page loads. So all right, so the ingredients here we got oh, so we're using oh kilos and cups. Okay. It's a little mixed up, but that's okay here it says one kilo of mixed ground pork or beef one cup of soaked bread And you're gonna put it in remove the crust before soaking.

[00:11:27] Oh, I see what they're doing here Okay, one onion two large eggs one tablespoon of dried oregano half a cup of minced fresh parsley two tablespoons of dried mint or 1 4th cup of minced fresh Mint that was hard to say. One fourth tablespoon dried dill or two tablespoons of fresh dill a one tablespoon of garlic powder one or one garlic clove one tablespoon of salt half a teaspoon of ground [00:12:00] pepper some flour for dredging for an olive oil and then there's gonna be so that's for making the meatball then for the sauce You're gonna have one cup of red wine two seeds of sorry, not two pomegranate seeds.

[00:12:11] That would be nothing. Two pomegranate

[00:12:14] Jamie: a bare sprinkling of pomegranate.

[00:12:19] Ashley: to buy pomegranates for. So you're going to instead use the seeds of two pomegranates and then half a tablespoon of brown nutmeg, one bay leaf, 68 plums, 1 4th cup of milk and 1 tablespoon of all purpose flour. All the instructions are here.

[00:12:36] So you're going to grind everything up. You're going to make the meatballs. You're going to refrigerate them for an hour and a half, no, for half an hour. And then you're going to fry them. And then in the meantime, after that, you're going to make the sauce with the wine and the pomegranates, and you're going to squeeze some juice in there. You're going to put some flour and milk and then add it to the sauce. really good. Like I said, everything will be in the show notes [00:13:00] if you want to make it. I actually might try to make that one of these days because it actually sounds really delicious. so that is our dish of the week. Now we're gonna go to our tea time. So tea time, we like to talk about a subject. And like we were talking about before, we're going to talk a little bit about the Greek underworld before we get into tea. Hades and the whole story with Hades and Persephone.

[00:13:26] going to talk, yeah, we're going to talk about Hades first. You'll see where we go. So first, let's talk a little bit about Hades our friend, our new friend.

[00:13:34] Jamie: Our new friend.

[00:13:37] Ashley: new friend who everybody didn't know much about but now we're gonna learn more about him just like you said some So there's a I read and you can correct me if I'm wrong I read in some places where they were like, they don't know if his name was actually Hades Because it might just be, they called it Hades, so they're like, let's just call this guy Hades. Because in some places they say that his real name is his secret. [00:14:00] So like you were saying before, the the unseen one, like you said, using epitaphs instead of actual names. Cause they're like, it might just be a secret. We might actually just not know who he

[00:14:08] We know he's

[00:14:09] and that's about it.

[00:14:10] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Hades, or there is like a longer form of the name, Aidanaeus, it refers to his quality of being unseen. Yeah. And oftentimes, like, you'll see also that the underworld is called Hades in a lot of sources. Like, it's the name of a place and the name of a god. I tend to call the god Hades and the underworld, just to make the distinction so people know what I'm talking about.

[00:14:31] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:34] Ashley: Because also I don't want people to be like, what are you guys talking about? I was like, what are you guys talking

[00:14:40] Jamie: yeah, but he he is the brother of Zeus and Poseidon, and also his sisters are Hera, Hestia, and Demeter. So they're all of the same generation, like he's of the Olympian generation. Hades is the only one that's not considered an Olympian. He doesn't live on Mount Olympus. So yeah.

[00:14:58] Ashley: everybody else is up there [00:15:00] They're all cool and everything, but he just doesn't live with them. That's no problem. He doesn't have to there's a lot of foolishness going on up there

[00:15:09] Jamie: Yeah, it's a different, it's a completely different realm from the underworld. It's a, yeah different place.

[00:15:16] Ashley: Exactly. Also, like you said before, Jamie in Greek society, a lot of the time it was seen as like unlucky, let's just say unlucky, to be talking too much about him.

[00:15:29] almost like superstition, like you're

[00:15:31] him. Yeah. So also because he's pretty much the king down there, he's also in charge of, like, necromancy.

[00:15:39] So people trying to channel messages from the dead, he's in charge of that. He's the one who's like, yeah, this is cool or not cool. He's

[00:15:48] Jamie: Yeah. In the ancient world Hades didn't really have a lot of temples, but he did have a few and they were called necromanteons and, necro referring to dead or death. And the [00:16:00] priests at these temples would be responsible for they were oracles of the dead. So they were responsible for helping loved ones and people who came to the temple communicate to those that had passed on to the underworld.

[00:16:13] So there is a little bit of that sort of like necromantic divination. No,

[00:16:19] Ashley: do you know if it was like, so I know like in some cultures like contacting the dead is seen as like a taboo or a bad thing. In Greek culture, was it like that? Or there was just like, cool. Okay,

[00:16:32] Jamie: yeah no. It was actually complete, like oracles and even oracles of the dead were completely normal.

[00:16:38] Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:40] Jamie: was actually the ancient Greeks believed in ghosts as well. And like other spirits the, that would be roaming around making sure that hungry ghosts were fed and that you did all the proper like burial rites and that you celebrated even those that had passed.

[00:16:53] That was all very important because it was part of seeing that their soul was settled and at peace. Peace in the underworld and wouldn't be like haunting [00:17:00] you, , like haunting you and your family and coming around your house and stirring up bad luck for you. So it was and people often sought advice from, it like.

[00:17:10] Dead heroes, dead family members things like that. They would even like, if there was say a wedding or a big, occasion where they were celebrating, they would often pour like a libation on the ground for those who were not able to come to the ceremony because they had passed at the underworld.

[00:17:26] There was still a lot the living cared very much for the dead, even if they didn't want to draw the notice of Hades.

[00:17:35] Ashley: so many cultures with the. Pouring one out for their dead homies

[00:17:39] Jamie: Yeah

[00:17:39] humans have been doing it for millennia. It's not a new thing.

[00:17:42] Ashley: Like invented

[00:17:43] Jamie: Yeah,

[00:17:44] nope. been doing that a long time.

[00:17:47] Ashley: Yeah, we've been pouring one out for our dead homies for

[00:17:50] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:53] Ashley: so yeah, so also so I also read this. Sometimes hades was it was a spirit of [00:18:00] justice also and sometimes invoked to in avenge the deceased, if they die, if they were murdered or if something had happened and that's why they died,

[00:18:10] Jamie: he could be invoked in that situation. He actually has an epithet orcos is his epithet. It means avenger of, avenger of the justice or avenger of those who have been perjured, lied to or cheated upon, or some sort of injustice was done to them. Yeah. And Hades would be called upon for those types of things.

[00:18:28] But honestly, really Persephone was called on far more for that type of activity. And she was actually see, Persephone Praxitici means exactor of justice. And she was actually the one who is in charge of the Furies. And the Furies are these, this trio of winged creatures that have these, wings.

[00:18:47] Whips of like you and they're just very fear, they're very scary and monstrous and they come after people like humans, like living humans who commit these types of crimes. And Persephone is the one that gives them [00:19:00] their marching orders. So yeah. Transcribed by https: otter. ai

[00:19:03] Ashley: Yeah, and we'll see later, but Percee really took to her role, like

[00:19:07] Jamie: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. She fully she leaned in.

[00:19:11] Ashley: Yeah. I've noticed that. And again, I have to say, book I think is needed because like I said, even when you just go to look stuff up about Hades, it's real hard to find a lot of information. So like, thank

[00:19:24] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:19:25] Oh, you're welcome. Yeah. It's really one of a kind, honestly.

[00:19:29] Ashley: Yeah.

[00:19:30] Jamie: I wrote it not only because I have great feelings of like love and spiritual devotion for Hades since I've worked with him since 2016, but in that process of trying to get to know him I had to do a lot of research and so it eventually got to the point where I had collected a lot of stuff and I was like, I to put this all together.

[00:19:48] There's got to be other weirdos like me who are interested in this and would like it to be all in one place, yeah, so I'm really happy that I was able to put it together and get it out there for everybody to read.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Ashley: yeah, thank you. Yes, for real. And even in here, like, you have so many interesting things about like, how to set up an altar for him and stuff like

[00:20:07] Look, sometimes we have people on well, actually, I've never had an author on who I didn't actually look through their book and think it was good.

[00:20:13] I haven't like, honestly, I'd be honest with you guys. But love when people do something like this. Like you take a subject that not, that isn't really well known and yes, put everything together. So everybody, if you're looking to find out more about Hades, you don't have to go looking too far.

[00:20:31] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. And I think even if you're not particularly interested in working with Hades like long term, if you're just reading it out of curiosity

[00:20:39] you can, I think you can still get some stuff out of like the book. The exercises like you were talking about, because like each chapter I go through my own methodology of how I go about building a relationship with a deity.

[00:20:51] And so from chapter to chapter, it progresses so that you can, you can increase like your level of, getting to know them and like working them into your spiritual practice. [00:21:00] And I think that, that info is relevant no matter who you're trying to work with. Yeah.

[00:21:07] Ashley: there's it's good for anybody to. more about how to work with deities, because there's a lot of people think wanting to do that, learning more about, and I think every people go about it the right way. But then there's a lot of people who like, oh I read one book about this person, or I think this is cool, or they're, this is a spirit of something that I want to learn more about.

[00:21:31] And then they just don't know where to go for like with the practice. And they're just like, This is cool. Yeah.

[00:21:38] Jamie: I think on some level as humans, we seek relationships and I think it's important to also treat deity relationships with respect and with, with grace and with, the same kindness and all of those things that we would offer someone who is our friend or, a member of our family.

[00:21:56] And it, sometimes it's hard. Yeah. People don't really know where to [00:22:00] start or how to do it because of a couple things. First of all, you can't really see them. They're not in the flesh. So that's a little harder to figure out how to talk with something that's very ephemeral. I think also, especially in Western culture, we have a hangover from patriarchy and patriarchal religions.

[00:22:16] And in, especially like in Christianity and many types, my, many forms of Christianity, there has to be an intercessor between you and God, right? There's a priest or a preacher or somebody like that. And Getting your, wrapping your head around the idea that you don't have to have a go between can sometimes really scare people and they just want to make sure that they're, they're doing it right or they're doing it safely or, they're not actually being disrespectful, like, without knowing that they're being disrespectful.

[00:22:46] So yeah, so it can be it can be interesting.

[00:22:49] Ashley: It can be. It can be. I've seen a lot of I see people on that side of the field doing that. Oh, I just don't know where to start. And then I see people on the other side of the field who are just doing whatever. And [00:23:00] then they're not getting, The answers or results or whatever it is that they were looking for.

[00:23:06] And then they want to give up. They're like I don't know what to do. Is there, it's like, yeah, I always say go read. A book like any book when it comes to spirituality. And

[00:23:17] say, go find before we used to use, always used to be like earth based religions.

[00:23:22] I

[00:23:22] Any pagan book. Honestly, there'll be talking about it. Like, you'll be good.

[00:23:26] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:27] Ashley: with one and go to your local library. Whatever you find cool. If you want to buy a book, cool, whatever. But start with one and see how to set up an altar and then go from there.

[00:23:36] Jamie: Yeah. And you can you can also think of it as like, like a series of experiments. And so if something doesn't work in one way, you can try it in another way. Cause it's not, just because you're, it's not like a you're making one decision and this is the way it has to be forever and ever, it's not, that's not the case.

[00:23:53] So yeah.

[00:23:54] Ashley: Yes. Yes. So everyone keep trying. Don't worry about it.

[00:23:59] Jamie: Yeah. [00:24:00] You'll be all right. You'll be all right.

[00:24:03] Ashley: Everything will be fine. Do not worry. Okay, so the other things I was going to say, so again, you want to read a lot about Hades, like I said, when I was doing my actual research, I didn't dig into the book as much as I should have, but I was just doing outside research, you really can't find a lot about him, to be honest, but if you read the book, there's like a lot of really good information about Hades,

[00:24:27] Jamie: Yeah, and I have a pretty big bibliography too, so if you want to like, after you read it and you're still interested and you want to learn more, you can scan through that bibliography and, go down as many rabbit trails as you want to.

[00:24:39] Ashley: Yeah, like, it's so funny and this is, I'm gonna sound silly but I feel like as a reader, sometimes I forget that bibliographies are not just like, the author doesn't get sued. Like,

[00:24:51] Jamie: No, there,

[00:24:52] yeah. You can go and you can look and you can find like more cool books. Yeah. It's easy to forget it. They're hanging out there at the back [00:25:00] of the book and you've already read all through the conclusion and maybe even shelved it and you forget that it's there, but yeah.

[00:25:06] Ashley: Yeah, so sometimes I'll be like, I'll have some books and I'll be like, oh, this is cool. I wonder how they knew that or I wonder how they figured it out. It's like, wrote about that in the book.

[00:25:16] Jamie: Yeah, there's a list in the back.

[00:25:18] Ashley: how learned all that. Let's continue. God, I love it. That's a tad bit about Hades, but I'm also gonna talk a little bit about the underworld part of this.

[00:25:30] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:25:31] Ashley: this is Hades domain and Jamie, please feel free at any point to correct me. I will be mispronouncing things.

[00:25:40] Jamie: Okay.

[00:25:42] Ashley: it's just something I do constantly when I'm really trying my best.

[00:25:45] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. The, in the, like the ancient in the ancient Greece world and like, the terminology that's included in Hades it's classical Greek, which is different than modern Greek. Languages evolve over thousands and thousands of years, so I think it's wonderful [00:26:00] that you're trying your best, honestly, at the end of the day, we don't really actually know

[00:26:05] Ashley: Yeah.

[00:26:05] Jamie: these words sounded because none of us were alive 3, 000 years ago.

[00:26:09] Just, I'm just saying.

[00:26:12] Ashley: Thank you for giving me that grace.

[00:26:14] Jamie: Yeah, just some perspective there for you.

[00:26:16] Ashley: Yeah, I know. You're like, you see all these words and you're like, I don't know what this says or means. I'm going to try my best because I don't want to be disrespectful or

[00:26:25] Yeah, let me try. Okay. So the thing about the underworld In Greek mythology is it's probably downward and we like they guess that because they're like it's dark. That's all we knew is it's dark because all these

[00:26:42] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:26:42] Ashley: it's mad dark.

[00:26:43] Jamie: It's in some texts it's described as being below, like, deeply below the surface of the earth. Now, and keep in mind, they did, the ancient Greek Astronomers didn't really have the same understanding of the cosmos that we have now. It was maybe below the Earth, like deep below the Earth, or [00:27:00] perhaps it was far beyond the setting sun in the West.

[00:27:04] So it's described as maybe one of those two things. Yeah.

[00:27:09] Ashley: that makes a lot of sense. So it's also a hidden realm

[00:27:14] Not like a

[00:27:16] Jamie: Yeah. There's not supposed to be crossover between the living and the dead too much because that could get really chaotic.

[00:27:24] Ashley: Yeah, I would think so.

[00:27:25] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. And so that's why there's actually a being, Hades, who's in charge of administrating that realm because part of what he does is keep the balance between living and dead and make sure that we don't descend into just complete chaos.

[00:27:40] Yeah. It's pretty

[00:27:41] Ashley: job is pretty important. Yeah.

[00:27:44] Jamie: Yeah. It's pretty important. And he and his brothers and sisters had to overthrow their father Kronos the Titan. And when they overthrew Kronos, they actually drew straws or sometimes it says they drew stones, but they did like a little draw [00:28:00] for between Hades and Poseidon and Zeus for who was going to rule which realm.

[00:28:05] And Hades actually drew what was considered the short straw or the like unwanted lot, which was the underworld. And and like the others, like Zeus and Poseidon, Zeus of course drew the realm of the skies and Poseidon drew the seas. And they were considered like the lucky ones, like that they got like the better realms.

[00:28:25] And so it was It's very interesting, but then once you dig into it a little bit more, you're like maybe it's nice to hang out in the underworld, as opposed to, like, all of, the sibling infighting and, like, the social drama and, like, all of the hullabaloo that's going on above ground, yeah.

[00:28:45] Ashley: feel like Hades like he went down there and he's I might get boring but like then he heard what was going on up there and he's actually, I'm fine.

[00:28:54] Jamie: He's like, I'm good. Thanks. Thanks, but no thanks. I am good.

[00:28:57] Ashley: my one brother can't keep in his pants. My [00:29:00] other brother is punishing people for all sorts of random shit. Hair is pissed off all the time.

[00:29:04] I can't actually handle any of this.

[00:29:07] I'm gonna

[00:29:08] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:29:09] Ashley: here with the dead people where it's quiet. Like, it's

[00:29:14] Jamie: I'm just gonna hang out with my dog.

[00:29:16] Ashley: fine.

[00:29:17] Jamie: It's gonna be cool. Yeah. But, honestly, it's not such a bad place. And the reason that Hades is sometimes called the wealthy one is because the underworld is everything below the surface of the earth. Like that includes fertile soil.

[00:29:30] It includes like all the underground rivers, like rock strata all of the precious mineral and resource deposits, all of that kind of stuff, like all of that is part of Hades realm.

[00:29:44] Ashley: Oh, I missed out my part about Sharon. We're gonna I put a

[00:29:50] of it. I deleted it. That's okay. So anyway,

[00:29:52] Jamie: That's okay, he's one of my favorite people, so Charon, yeah, Charon or Charon is the ferryman who ferries souls [00:30:00] across the River Styx into to the Underworld, mhm.

[00:30:03] Ashley: Exactly. So we'll get to him in a second too, because, all right, so listen, everybody, there's a lot of rivers. There's a big system of rivers.

[00:30:11] Jamie: That is, yeah,

[00:30:11] Ashley: so many rivers. The most popular one that everyone's heard of is like the River Styx.

[00:30:16] Jamie: mhm. I would say that's the most familiar for most people, mhm,

[00:30:20] Ashley: Knows that one. It's not, again, it's not the only one, but it's also the place where the gods swear oaths.

[00:30:27] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:30:28] Ashley: And this is where the dead cross into Hades.

[00:30:31] Jamie: That's true. Yeah. So they wait on one side of the shore and Charon, or Charon ferries people back, oh, from the shore to basically the entrance to the underworld. And there is a fee. You're supposed to pay him one coin. And traditionally, if you were given the proper burial, you would have a coin under your tongue.

[00:30:49] So that you were able to, , grab it and hand it to hand it to the ferryman to pay your fare.

[00:30:54] Ashley: Yes. So it's so funny. In so many cultures, there's a Ferryman

[00:30:59] Very [00:31:00] popular.

[00:31:00] In my father's culture, it's a ferryman. And actually, like, if you don't, so it's a little harsher in Greek, like in Ashanti culture, it's like, if you don't get picked up by the ferryman, you just got to cross the river yourself.

[00:31:11] And that sucks. Like, if the river

[00:31:15] Jamie: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:17] Ashley: and like, on one hand, it's like, you'd have to cross over or the other hand, they're like, you become a fish and you're just in the river. And you're just stuck there. Like, and that

[00:31:26] Jamie: it's a little, it's a little stricter. If you can't, if you can't pay the ferryman you get stuck. Like, you're just, like, floating there. And, which is really hard because part of this, the cycle of like transmigration of your soul. So part of the cycle of being like dying and being reborn, which is something the ancient Greeks believed in.

[00:31:44] You couldn't actually, you were stuck at that point, right? You were stuck there, like not being able to pass to the underworld and because you needed to get to the underworld to be able to be reborn again, right? So you were just stuck there.

[00:31:56] Ashley: Yeah, that stinks. You don't want to get stuck there.[00:32:00]

[00:32:01] Jamie: I don't, I would say no,

[00:32:02] Ashley: hopefully your family gave you that coin or someone did.

[00:32:05] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:32:07] Ashley: So then we have the river Acheron? Acheron?

[00:32:11] Jamie: it's Asheron or Acheron. And sometimes the river Styx and Acheron are, sometimes they switch places. Like sometimes it's Acheron that Charon ferries people over. Sometimes it's the Styx, so it can be either one. Yeah, but there's actually like many of these rivers, They are part of Greek mythology, but they do actually have a counterpart, in our real topography like on the land that we walk on.

[00:32:36] So in, in ancient Greece, near the shore of the Acheron River was one of the necromanteons that we were talking about earlier.

[00:32:42] Ashley: Okay. So that's what I have in my notes too. Like sometimes they are switched up with each

[00:32:47] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:48] Ashley: converge. It just depends where you're reading.

[00:32:51] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:32:52] Ashley: Then we have the river Flaygirthron?

[00:32:54] Jamie: Oh, flagathon, yeah, flagathon. It's really hard to say. It's the river of [00:33:00] fire.

[00:33:00] Ashley: Yeah,

[00:33:02] doesn't sound like I want to be in there either. Apparently

[00:33:04] Jamie: yeah.

[00:33:05] Ashley: to the depths of Tartarus, we'll talk about in a second, and it's usually associated with like punishment.

[00:33:12] Jamie: Yeah, it's it's fiery. You don't, it's not a very pleasant river. Yeah, and it's it's, it. Yeah. It flows through the underworld and like a lot of times flagon is people invoke it for curses to like curse their enemies and things like that. So yeah, it's it's a little bit less friendly than some of them.

[00:33:32] Ashley: Yeah, it doesn't sound

[00:33:34] but like, hey, to each his own, if you don't want to be friendly, that's okay. The river Coquit Coquitus?

[00:33:39] Jamie: Cockatice. Yeah. Cockatice. Yeah. Hey, you're doing good. These words are very hard to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The River Cockatice.

[00:33:48] Ashley: yes, of whaling which also empties into Tartarus and is associated with pun with the punishment of murderers. That's what I read

[00:33:57] Jamie: I haven't read the source that associates it with [00:34:00] murderers, although it very well could be. What I do know of it is that is where one of the beings that lives in the underworld, Millennioe, who is one of the daughters of Hades she is the goddess of ghosts. And so the River Cocytus is the river of wailing.

[00:34:15] And oftentimes like the Those souls that we were talking about that didn't have like their coin to pay or weren't mourned in the proper way or given the proper burial rites their ghosts are haunting and like wailing along the shores of this river. And it's said to be like really icy cold

[00:34:30] Ashley: okay. I don't want to go there either. Yeah. The river of Lithi? Lithi?

[00:34:37] Jamie: leafy, yeah, leafy.

[00:34:39] Yeah. So Lethe is the river of forgetting. And basically before you are reborn, you drink from the river Lethe and you don't remember your former lifetime anymore unless you are lucky enough to be a initiate of like a mystery cult. Sometimes you were given like the you were given basically like the directions [00:35:00] for how to be able to be reborn and still retain your memories of all your past lives.

[00:35:06] Ashley: Nice. Ooh, I want to be part of that mystery, cool, because that's cool.

[00:35:10] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:35:11] Ashley: And then there's Oceanus?

[00:35:14] Jamie: Yeah. The Oceanus River is it's just a, it's a very big river. And again, like, because there wasn't really like a understanding of like that we have of the cosmos, the Oceanus River was a really big river that circled maybe the whole underworld or even maybe the whole earth. Like it.

[00:35:31] Ashley: Makes sense. So then we have three, like, we'll call them departments.

[00:35:37] Jamie: Departments. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:42] Ashley: the departments would be like Tartarus is one department. And in some places it's like Tartarus is Hades, but in some places they're like, actually not at all. It can't be. Cause

[00:35:56] Kronos was a titan,

[00:35:58] He's down there with the rest of [00:36:00] them titans, because, Alright, if you, quick, this is the quick SparkNotes version, what had happened was Kronos, it was Gaia is their mom, right?

[00:36:10] Jamie: No, their mom is Rhea.

[00:36:11] Ashley: Rhea, I'm

[00:36:12] Jamie: Rhea. No, it's okay.

[00:36:13] Ashley: Rhea and Kronos had a bunch of kids, aka all the Olympians. So Hades, Zeus, Poseidon Athena, Aphrodite.

[00:36:21] Jamie: No, it's Hera, Hestia, and Demeter.

[00:36:24] Ashley: Sorry,

[00:36:24] Jamie: That's okay.

[00:36:25] Ashley: I apologize. Oh, yeah.

[00:36:27] Jamie: There's a lot. It's a big family tree. So yeah, I have a chart so that I can remember, it's okay.

[00:36:34] Ashley: He was like, Oh no, I don't want any of them to get more powerful than me. So he ate them.

[00:36:40] Jamie: Yeah,

[00:36:41] Ashley: Zeus, Rhea was able to hide him for a while. But amazingly, because hashtag mythology, the rest of them were just living in his stomach.

[00:36:49] Jamie: they were. They were, yeah. Yeah Rhea fed Kronos a stone instead of Zeus. So he thought that he followed he swallowed all of his children, but he didn't. Yeah.

[00:36:59] Ashley: [00:37:00] so everybody was just chilling in Kronos stomach, till they got older, and then till Zeus, got older and he was learning how to, fight Kronos. So then when he got older, he went and he defeated him, and then he got all his brothers and sisters out of Kronos stomach, bada bing bada boom.

[00:37:18] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:37:19] Ashley: like Jamie told us, Hades pulled the short stick, we went down, everyone's out up there, and that's, what happened. Again, that's a short version, not 100 percent accurate, but mostly.

[00:37:31] Jamie: That's really funny.

[00:37:31] Ashley: Kronos being a Titan and some of the other type. Okay. I didn't read this, but what I know of Greek mythology is that like the Titans. Okay. Like in Norse mythology, like the giants were like causing problems. So the new gods were like. You guys got to get out of here because you're doing too much and we are going to fight you. And, but they were ruling everything before. So it's the same situation where the new Olympians were like, you guys, this is [00:38:00] too much. You're doing too much. We're going to make you all live down here because you're trying to fight us all the time. So they,

[00:38:05] Jamie: it was it was somewhat similar. Some of the Titans actually sided with the Olympians in the war against Kronos, so it wasn't It didn't fall like around, along generational lines like, for example like Hecate was, is a Titaness and she sided with the Olympians in the battle and things like that.

[00:38:23] Some of the Titans, the ones that were on the losing side they they were imprisoned in Tartarus. So Tartarus is it's described as a very deep abyss. It's sometimes it comes off as almost being like an impenetrable jail, like, if you've done something very bad and they want to make sure that you can't escape your throne into Tartarus.

[00:38:47] It's really interesting because before Before this before Homer and Hesiod philosophers before that also talked about Tartarus, but they talked about it more, I would say, like a black [00:39:00] hole that was like a black hole that was the sort of the start of the universe, which I think is a really interesting way to look at it because that does parallel more about what we're talking about.

[00:39:12] the universe started. So it's really interesting that they had come up with that before and that they, the idea was that this Tartarus, this deep hole or deep abyss out of which all life came, what like pre existed before anything, like before any of the gods or anything else. But, in later And later eras, like when we get into, like I said, Homer and Hesiod and later that sort of idea fa like fades to the background.

[00:39:39] Ashley: Yeah, Tartarus, there we go. But yeah, that black hole thing is very interesting. Absolutely.

[00:39:44] Jamie: it's not really, there are some mortals that have punishments and they They live in and around Tartarus, but they're not, it's not really the same, like, you wouldn't, you and I would not need to be afraid of being jailed in Tartarus. Like, you have to be a, you have [00:40:00] to be a big bad

[00:40:01] Ashley: Yeah.

[00:40:02] Jamie: to be, put in there.

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:04] Ashley: Yeah. You have to like really fuck up

[00:40:06] Jamie: Yeah, basically.

[00:40:08] Ashley: Yeah. Then we have the full as del Me Meadows.

[00:40:14] Jamie: good. Yeah, asphodel. Asphodel meadows or asphodel fields.

[00:40:18] Ashley: yeah. Talking about that before.

[00:40:20] Jamie: Asphodel is a type of flower, actually.

[00:40:22] Ashley: Okay.

[00:40:23] Jamie: Yeah, it's very similar to the it's like a, it could refer to an asphodel flower, or it could refer to what we call a narcissus. or a daffodil. And if you say the words, they sound really similar, right?

[00:40:38] Asphodel, daffodil. Yeah. Those fields are where we're talking about. Those are the airport lounge where you're between lives and you're just drifting around and hanging out, waiting for the next cycle of rebirth.

[00:40:51] Ashley: Yes. I just hear like like elevator music for some reason. Like I just feel like it's just like

[00:40:58] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah, [00:41:00] exactly. Yeah. It's not a terrible place to be, you're just drifting around.

[00:41:03] Ashley: You're just like, whatever. And then we have Ian Fields, which are like, deluxe afterlife experience. Yeah.

[00:41:11] Jamie: Yeah. So the fields, the Elysian fields or the fields of Elysium that is where you go if you were a virtuous mortal while you were alive. And those, it's really nice. It's like a sunny field. There's plenty to eat and drink. People are laughing and having fun and dancing and singing and it's just a really nice place to hang out.

[00:41:31] Ashley: Yeah. So it's like a picnic until you have to go back. Or like if

[00:41:35] chill there, who knows?

[00:41:36] Jamie: Yeah. So there is in some sources it's said that if you if you've been if you've been born and died three times and three times you've achieved Elysium, then you get the choice of living in the Isles of the Blessed with the heroes and everybody else. And you can choose to do that instead of being reborn again.

[00:41:56] Ashley: Oh, that's cool.

[00:41:58] You get like, it's like a [00:42:00] scorecard and like,

[00:42:02] like the third

[00:42:03] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The thing I think is really interesting is like the majority of mortals, like there's not really a sense of punishment, like in some other religions there's like, okay you're bad or you're good and, and, but in the Greek underworld, You're just everybody's pretty average, there's just, you're not, you just, you were just a human, you were just alive, you didn't particularly, obtain any sort of like, heroic feats or perhaps you were initiated into a mystery cult or things like that.

[00:42:31] You could do that if you wanted to, but even if you didn't, your afterlife would not necessarily be like, it wouldn't necessarily be like something terrible to happen to you. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:42] Ashley: I like how a lot of cultures the same way as Greek mythology have like separate afterlife areas. They're

[00:42:49] Jamie: Heh.

[00:42:50] Ashley: pick like, they're like you were a soldier. But you also seem like you were all right. You're a pretty chill person. Like you didn't really hurt anybody like other than having to go to [00:43:00] war. So you could go here or you could go here. It's up to you.

[00:43:03] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:43:04] Ashley: us know by noon., or it's like you were somebody's mom and you were chill and nothing bad happened.

[00:43:10] So again, you could go here. I love that. Cause it's I hate that whole binary of

[00:43:16] You're going to hell or you're going to heaven. But everybody is multiple things.

[00:43:22] perfect,

[00:43:23] and most people aren't all bad. So I'm just like, can we have options?

[00:43:27] Jamie: Can we have options, please?

[00:43:30] Ashley: I just want to relax.

[00:43:31] Like I want all this stress of am I going to go to hell or have,

[00:43:36] to go to the waiting room and wait for my trip, and eat pizza.

[00:43:41] Jamie: Yeah. It was definitely preferable to be alive rather than dead. People very much wanted to have the experience of being embodied and alive. Yeah. But it was really interesting is because there was that transmigration, you were born and then you died and then you were born again and the cycle continued.

[00:43:58] Yeah, it was interesting [00:44:00] because oftentimes, the belief was you spent more time being dead than you did being alive. So life was really precious. Like when you were in that part of the cycle.

[00:44:09] Ashley: yeah. So that's another really interesting thing I like, learned from doing some research and like looking at your book and stuff. I, not that I didn't realize that the Greeks loved being alive. I'm not saying that. The Greeks, the ancient Greeks seemed like they were having a good time. But also It's like, I know, we know so much about like the

[00:44:31] for Greek people that you would think that like, they were really like, obsessed with it almost like

[00:44:39] so much in the way it's we learn about it.

[00:44:41] It's like, Oh, this was this and this is that you're like, why would they know so much if they weren't like, I got to get there? I'm not saying they wanted to die or anything. But it's

[00:44:48] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:44:48] Ashley: You have that

[00:44:49] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:44:52] Ashley: It cool. It was good for them.

[00:44:56] Jamie: Yeah, of course. [00:45:00] You

[00:45:00] USB PnP Audio Device-7: Hi, everybody. I hope you're enjoying this episode of dying with the divine. I'm here because I want to tell you about. Our new segment that we're putting in place, because I don't want to just tell you stories. I want to hear your stories. So if you have a comment or an experience about something that we talk about, or one of the characters ancestors or deities.

[00:45:23] USB PnP Audio Device-10: You can leave a message on my website time with the divine.com. You can leave a voice note there also, or you can email me@dinewithadivinepodatgmail.com. When you tell me your stories, when you leave your comments, I will read them on our bonus episodes. This segment's going to be called last call. Ha ha.

[00:45:43] Get it. I love it. I'm really excited, cause I definitely want to hear more from all of you. So if you are a diners club member, you will hear all these wonderful stories on your episodes. When I get the comments and so.

[00:45:58] Thanks so.

[00:45:58] much. Can't wait to hear [00:46:00] from all of you and keep enjoying the show.

[00:46:03] Ashley: Now we are to our story time, this story that's heard around the world. Everyone knows this story, but we're going to tell it again because why not? It's a good story. So we're going to talk about this story of Hades and Persephone and how Persephone got down there and became the queen to Hades king.

[00:46:21] Here we go. I'm gonna take a lot of poetic license with this story but I will tell it the best way I know how. Okay so the thing is that Persephone was chilling outside one day, and she's just like walking around and having a good ass time, probably picking flowers, because she liked to do that. Then all of a sudden, she seemed to get kidnapped. What's going on? Nobody knows. Meanwhile, Hades, who we've been talking about this whole time, he's in the underworld, and even though he's having a good time hanging out down there, he was also like maybe I'm getting a little lonely. Also, his brother Zeus was like [00:47:00] Hades, don't you want a partner?

[00:47:01] And Hades was like, maybe, I don't know. And then after a while, he realized he was lonely, he's bored, all he does is work. All he does is he's the CEO of the Underworld. He just works. Like, like, he has nobody to hang out with,

[00:47:13] Jamie: need some work life balance, bud.

[00:47:17] Ashley: Exactly. is like his only friend, and he's working all day and night.

[00:47:22] Cerberus, also his friend. Cerberus is three heads, and sometimes he's doing a lot. He loves his dog, but he's got to talk to somebody he's tell somebody You know his hopes and dreams and like what he wants So Hades one day now, I heard the stories two ways one way. I heard that Hades was like up walking around real quick.

[00:47:45] Just for a minute. And I also heard that he sent one of his goons up here to just check out the scene. And they saw one pretty girl picking flowers who happened to be Persephone and they kidnapped her or Hades maybe did real [00:48:00] quick. We don't know. But the one I heard that I thought was better was he sent a goon. One of his goons up here kidnapped Persephone. Obviously being kidnapped isn't great. So at first Persephone was a little upset about it. She was just like, I don't know where I am. This is really terrible. By the way, Persephone has a mom. Her name is Demeter. We mentioned her before. Demeter is a little, she's like a helicopter mom.

[00:48:26] Jamie: A bit. A bit, yeah.

[00:48:28] Ashley: Yeah, she's a bit of a helicopter mom. She won't let Persephone do much. And Persephone, she was, let's say she had a teenage girl mentality at least. And she's like, Oh my God, my mom never lets me do anything. Like, so she was a little irritated. Anyway, she's kidnapped and now she's a little panicked.

[00:48:45] Like, what do I do? So now we have a all right, now we're going to talk about two separate places. Now. On the surface, Demeter goes looking for Persephone. She

[00:48:57] And let's just leave it right there. Demeter's panicking.[00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Now, down below, we have a Beauty and the Beast situation going on. Persephone's refusing to do shit. She's like, get me back to the surface. And so then, finally, Hades comes by and she's like, Are you the one in charge of this place? Because, actually, I'd like to go home. And he's like, listen, think you're really cool. Sorry about the whole kidnapping kind of thing, but I didn't know how else to get you to talk to me. And she's like, you could have sent me a letter. And he's like, but I don't know how to do any of that anyway. He's like, I thought you were cute. I think that you could learn to like me. think that you could even learn to love me one day.

[00:49:40] If you would just stay down here with me, that'd be great. And she's like, she's all mad and he's like i'm gonna let you think about it and he like shuts the door Just picture beauty in the beast situation right now. This is what's happening Remember when bell the beast was like i'm not gonna let you go But you have to learn to like me and bell was really mad. Remember [00:50:00] that so now also One of one of the good guys in this situation the goodest guy is Hecate. Hecate is down there Hecate knows Persephone. And she knows, Hecate knows a whole bunch. She knows everybody. So she's like, Persephone sees Hecate and she's like, Hecate, the fuck is happening?

[00:50:19] And Hecate's like, listen, I can't get you up there because I'm not allowed to do that, but I'm gonna help you. Like, I'm going to comfort you. I'm going to be your rock. I'm going to be your handmaiden. And. Persephone is like, okay, fine. But like, also I need to get out of here. And Hecate is like, I'm calling you girl.

[00:50:36] There's no way out. Like, she's like, I'm the keeper of the gate and I can't let you out. It's literally that serious. I have the keys and I can't do it. So we're going back to the surface. Now on the surface, Demeter is panicked. So she calls up her brother. Olympia, and she's like, oh, can I speak to Zeus, and they're like, hold on, do, Zeus picks up the phone, he's like, what up, sis, and she's like, Zeus, [00:51:00] we have a problem.

[00:51:01] I can't find my daughter. He's like, what do you mean? She's like, I've been looking all day. I don't know where Persephone is. I can't find her. Also, Zeus is Persephone's dad. You heard it right. Don't

[00:51:13] Jamie: Yep.

[00:51:13] Ashley: It's

[00:51:16] Jamie: make it make sense. Yeah.

[00:51:18] Ashley: The other thing that you're pisses me off about the story is Zeus. It's like, Oh, I guess I got to help you. Zeus kidnaps mad people all the time. Like that's his thing is kidnapping people against their will. So this time Zeus was like, cause Demeter's upset. Demeter's mad. So she, he's like, I guess I got to help you because you're freaking out. he goes. And he's like, I'm going to be father of the year now. He goes to talk to Hades and he's like, Hades, listen, we have a problem. I don't mind you kidnapping for Stephanie. Cause I'm a fan of kidnapping, but Demeter, she is not upset. And she's not going to [00:52:00] let me hear the end of it until you let this girl go back up there.

[00:52:03] So Hades is like, Oh, Jesus Christ. Okay, fine. Maybe I gotta let you go back up there. So he's talking, so Hades is talking to Hecate, Hecate is talking to Persephone, and she's like I guess you gotta let I guess I gotta let you go back up there. Other problem is, oh sorry, I didn't mention this part, in some stories they say that Demeter found out who stole Persephone because of Helios, the god

[00:52:29] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:52:30] Ashley: Nobody else saw, but Helios did because he's So he sees

[00:52:35] Jamie: He sees everything.

[00:52:36] Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. So

[00:52:38] she knew. I, sorry, I should have mentioned that before. That's how she knew who took her now, okay, we're going down, now we're going back to the kidnapping. I forget now, did Demeter go down there or did Persephone come back up? Somebody wants to talk to somebody. Hold on. Yeah.

[00:52:54] Jamie: I I can tag in if you want, but you're doing a very good job,

[00:52:58] Ashley: I feel like I told it all in the [00:53:00] wrong order now. I'm so upset

[00:53:01] Jamie: No, it's okay.

[00:53:02] I think the biggest thing is, so Demeter, like our helicopter mama she's also a bit dramatic. So as she's searching, she is neglecting her duties, which is, she's, she's basically responsible for the harvest, for like the crops that grow and for the good harvest and for, all the food that all the mortals need to live.

[00:53:22] And since she's totally ignoring her duties because she's, involved in this daughter drama, she, everything's dying. So there's no food to eat. All the people are dying. They're getting sicker. And so Zeus is like, this might not be the best scenario, and so once she figures out where Persephone has gone, that's where she's, she's like Zeus she is in the underworld and Hades needs to give her back.

[00:53:46] And basically Zeus sends Hermes, like the messenger of the gods. He sends Hermes down to get, to retrieve Persephone and to bring her up to the surface.

[00:53:57] Ashley: Yes, that's perfect. That's [00:54:00] so this is now everybody like Jamie just said that again now while all that was happening while Demeter's throwing herself on the ground every day and crying and everybody's dying because she forgot to grow some wheat. Unfortunately

[00:54:19] Jamie: we're like running out of headstones for everybody's dying over here. So can, is there like a solution maybe?

[00:54:28] Ashley: when you're a god, you don't have time to abandon all your duties and grieve like you're in charge of a lot

[00:54:33] Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Like we need to

[00:54:35] maybe.

[00:54:36] Ashley: It's

[00:54:38] Jamie: your decision making paradigm for us, because, like,

[00:54:43] Ashley: this is too much.

[00:54:44] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:54:44] Ashley: do. So now while all of that was happening again think beauty and the beast There's something there that wasn't there before like Perception is like slowly falling in love [00:55:00] with hades every night. She's being sent to dinner with hades She's not eaten, but he's talking and she's like actually this guy's kind of cool.

[00:55:08] Like He's actually smart. I actually like hearing him talk. Like, he knows a lot of stuff. He's interesting. so she's slowly falling in love with him. Now, Hermes comes and he's like, you guys? He's like, shit is wild up there. Persephone? I don't know. You guys gotta get your shit together and we gotta go back. Okay? Now here's the problem. Now, Demeter now gets to meet up with Persephone once again.

[00:55:38] Jamie: Yeah, they're reunited, at last.

[00:55:42] Ashley: because of Hermes and because of Hecate, now they're back together. Demeter's like, oh my god, I'm so happy to see you! Persephone is like, I'm happy to see you too! And then they're chit chatting and she's so happy and she's like, okay, so you're going to come back up to live with me here.

[00:55:58] And then she's like, [00:56:00] a minute. What's that? Let's just say this. Okay. My poetic license. She sees some stuff on her hands and she's like, what's that? And she's like, Oh, I was eating some pomegranates. She said you were eating what? Because the thing is guys. In Greek mythology, if you eat the pomegranates from the underworld, you gotta stay down there.

[00:56:19] really be living up here anymore. That's not cool. There's different sources that say how many seeds she ate. Some say four, some say six some say three. It doesn't really matter.

[00:56:30] She ate some. So now it meant that she was like permanently tied to Hades

[00:56:37] couldn't, Like leave all year. Like she can't just leave and not live there anymore. Which probably at the same time, Persephone is like, okay. She's like, I'm married to that guy down there and he's hot. Like, I like him

[00:56:54] Jamie: He's rich, too.

[00:56:55] Ashley: He's rich. He's hot. He has his own kingdom. Like, what am I

[00:56:59] Jamie: [00:57:00] He has a cool dog. Yeah, it's like,

[00:57:02] Ashley: play games. We

[00:57:03] war. Like Chyron's like her old grumpy uncle. She's like, I got used to him already. Like we're good. All the rivers, like she's okay. So she realized it's like, okay, so now they make a deal. So the deal is now that for like half the year. Persephone is going to come up and chill with Demeter like she's not happy about this at all But she'll be able to come and hang out with Demeter And then for half of the year, she has to go back and live with her husband in Haiti So as you guessed it when Demeter is happy that Persephone is around that's spring and summertime when she's like, oh i'll decide to grow But once again Demeter is not dealing with her grief in a healthy way Because every time she has to not see her daughter for six months, she can't do her job You Which is terrible.

[00:57:55] Jamie: Everybody's like, we really wish she would go to therapy, but we just, we can't [00:58:00] make her.

[00:58:02] Ashley: She needs therapy and, group. Like, she just needs, it's fine. You can still work. We understand you miss your daughter. But she'll be back. It happens every year. Please. Everybody. And also, everybody. Oh, and the other thing is down there again, Hecate's always down there. She's always helping Persephone.

[00:58:22] They're like tight. Down there, everyone like, they're like now everybody just lives his way for the next eternity.

[00:58:29] Jamie: Yeah. Pretty much. Pretty much until now. Yeah. Yeah. Hecate. She is she's a psychopomp. So she can lead people to and from the underworld. And I always think of her as being like the OG, GPS. Like she knows, like, All the ways to get in and out and where you need to go. She shows that, she's she lives in the underworld, she can go anywhere she wants.

[00:58:50] She doesn't, she's not combined there. So she one of her main things is to guide Persephone in and out, each time she has to, yeah.

[00:58:58] Ashley: he's like the torchbearer.[00:59:00]

[00:59:00] light. Like you said, she's got her GPS. She doesn't even need the GPS. She's like, I am the GPS. Like I said, like Jamie said, I know how to get it out of this place. I do it

[00:59:09] Yes

[00:59:11] Jamie: she knows all the ways.

[00:59:13] Ashley: she's doing great. Hecate is almost like the underground Hermes and then Hermes is like the above ground Hecate in a

[00:59:21] Jamie: Yeah. They do have some similarities. Yeah. Yeah, because they're both psychopomps, like, they're two beings that have the capability to, like, go back and forth, like, at will, like, as much as they want,

[00:59:34] Ashley: and yeah. That's what happened. Persephone is fine now. She helps, she, like you said before, Jamie, I feel like, yes, now you hear more about Persephone. Everyone's like, obsessed, like, with her. They're like, oh my god, she's, like, queen, ah, like, I love

[00:59:53] Jamie: Yeah.

[00:59:53] Ashley: Like the princess die of the underworld, like,

[00:59:56] Jamie: she's I love Persephone as well. I yeah. [01:00:00] Yeah, she's a very interesting character and I think that, like all of the like fan fiction aside because there is so much out there about Hades and Persephone, right? Like there's, we have Hades the video game, there's Hades down the musical, there's Lore Olympus on Webtoon Comics, there's, if you like romance novels, there's like thousands of novels that are retellings of Hades and Persephone.

[01:00:21] We love telling this story over and over. But I think, if you're going for more of the like. Who are these deities actually? Like this more spiritual side of it. Persephone is scarier than Hades is. Persephone is definitely of the two of them. The one that is a bit more volatile and a bit more active, like, like,

[01:00:42] like, really like, active and like in the ancient world, like, people often wrote, like, curse tablets.

[01:00:48] It was a very common thing for you to curse, like, your neighbor to, like, give you back your cow or, like, to, like, curse someone who, like, stole the person you wanted to marry or whatnot. And these curse tablets would be [01:01:00] addressed to Hecate or Persephone. Like very commonly, and we talked about the furies that Persephone would, send after people who committed like injustice against others and things like that.

[01:01:10] So she's pretty fierce.

[01:01:11] Ashley: Yeah. I can, yeah. And like look at her parents and like.

[01:01:17] Jamie: Yeah, she's pretty fierce. And she's She's pretty cool. I like a lot of things about her. I like the idea that she, she actually does what seeds do, right? Like they, she spends like many months underground and then she comes to the light and, there's flowers and food and all kinds of things that, that occur because she's returned to the surface and then the harvest comes and, once again, she has to go under water.

[01:01:42] So she's again, talk about like a non binary way of looking at things like she's, all of that, which is pretty cool. And I think living in the underworld with Hades gives her the capability to be able to do that. I think Mount Olympus might be a little bit more misogynistic. She [01:02:00] might not quite be able to be like in the fullness of her power and like her full capabilities.

[01:02:06] The underworld gives her that chance.

[01:02:08] Ashley: Yeah. And I feel like definitely Hades is more chill like that. He's just like,

[01:02:14] Jamie: Yeah, I,

[01:02:15] Ashley: happens and Persephone is like, smite them! .

[01:02:17] Jamie: I don't know for sure, but I imagine him being like someone who would like maybe just calmly lay his hand on her arm and be like should we think about it? Maybe we should sleep on it.

[01:02:27] Ashley: Exactly. Yeah. First, he always is like, babe, like, you

[01:02:30] Jamie: Maybe we should sleep on it. Yeah, but they have like side by side thrones in the halls of Hades, and a lot, and like when really tough matters of judgment or mortals come down there for one reason or another they always describe the fact that Hades and Persephone are seated together and that they are like communicating with each other as far as like what, should happen, which that's really unique in mythology for, the the more feminine half of the pair to have that sort of power and [01:03:00] placement.

[01:03:00] Ashley: , the way I have first heard this story way they tell this story was like, part of the reason Persephone fell in love with Hades is because she's like, wow, he like, gives a crap about what I'm saying and he's listening to me and he actually is not just dismissing, my ideas. He really was like, no, I just want a partner, like not just a wife to do shit for me. Like I really just want someone to talk to me and help me do shit and make decisions and she and he realized oh Persephone is actually smart and she's like actually Hades is smart too so like I like yeah I like the way they told

[01:03:34] like he yeah he kidnapped her I know but like he did it just like

[01:03:38] Jamie: Yeah. It's interesting with stories, we don't actually know because, the stories are told by humans, right? And so we don't really know what their biases or agendas are when they're telling them and why they told them the way they did. What we do know is there was this kind of like really messed up like marriage play that would happen in Ancient Greece where, and it was all, it was a [01:04:00] play.

[01:04:00] It was like, People were playing pretend, but basically the groom and like some of his friends and family would go over to the bride's house and steal her

[01:04:08] Ashley: yes

[01:04:09] Jamie: and like put her in a little, chariot or carriage or whatnot, or on a horse and like take her to the place where like the marriage was going to occur.

[01:04:17] And and this all happened. With the bride's father's permission. And this was this marriage play. And so the myth like mirrors, like something that actually occurred in society, even though now, like as modern audiences, we're like that's horrific, like what the fuck,

[01:04:33] Ashley: They still do that in parts of Asia. I forget which country. I actually saw something on this other day. I think it was Indonesia. They still have the, and again, it's play. It's a

[01:04:41] Still do that.

[01:04:42] Jamie: Yeah. So it's it's very interesting. And, we don't really I know personally, I would love to fall into a more feminist viewpoint and be like, oh, Persephone chose to go and she chose to stay there. And, everything was, she had, , agency in the situation, but we don't truly know [01:05:00] that for sure.

[01:05:01] We can't really the myths doesn't tell us, it doesn't tell us what what, if anything, she thought. Most of the myth, most of the myth focuses on Demeter and, like, what Demeter's doing to get her back. So You know, it's always going to be ambiguous. And in the book I write about the fact that, I've come around to thinking that maybe that's part of its deep magic is that it is so ambiguous.

[01:05:24] And even today we're still having really deep conversations about like agency and body autonomy and all of these like really deep topics. And we have this myth that can help us frame those conversations or have an entry point into speaking about it. And like maybe helps us be kinder humans.

[01:05:45] So maybe there's some magic there,

[01:05:47] Ashley: oh, I love that way of looking at it. Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah.

[01:05:52] I

[01:05:52] Jamie: Because, of course, we don't want women to be kidnapped or assaulted or any of these things. Yeah, sometimes myth can be a little hard [01:06:00] to handle.

[01:06:01] Ashley: can be

[01:06:02] Jamie: Yeah.

[01:06:02] Ashley: yeah, a lot of mythology. You're like, like, I

[01:06:05] Jamie: You're like, what?

[01:06:07] Ashley: This makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm like, I know. I was like,

[01:06:10] Jamie: Yeah. And I think, that's another reason why I like to do so much trance journey, to actually go and talk to gods. Yeah. In the other world realms and get their take on the story because there's nothing like getting it, straight from the horse's mouth, like getting it right from the source and see what they have to say.

[01:06:28] So I'm very curious, so your listeners can read that the chapter about Hades and Persephone is chapter three. It's called Clemenos, which is Hades epithet that means notorious. Yes.

[01:06:40] Ashley: that. Um,

[01:06:41] Jamie: Yep.

[01:06:44] Ashley: So that comes to the end of our story time and to the end of the podcast. Jamie, thank you for giving us so much to think about and thank you for all your amazing input because I think everybody learned a little bit

[01:06:58] bit

[01:06:58] Jamie: thanks! Oh my [01:07:00] goodness. I hope it was, yeah, it was really fun. I really enjoyed myself. I really enjoyed your storytelling too. So that was amazing.

[01:07:07] Ashley: Thanks, even though I forgot some of it, but I appreciate you filling in some of the blanks. Thank you.

[01:07:12] Jamie: It's okay.

[01:07:13] Ashley: Can you tell us where we can find you in real life, or on the internet, or whatever you want to tell us?

[01:07:18] Jamie: Yeah. Thank you so much for asking me. A good place to start is my website. It's jamiewagoner. com. You can sign up for my newsletter there, so you'll know all about my events and offerings and things like that. Because I do teach classes and I do a lot of events as well. And I don't really spam you with newsletters, like they, they barely come out once a month.

[01:07:36] So you'll be fine. And sometimes I give away freebies and stuff like that. So that's a good place to start. You can also find me on social media. I'm on on YouTube. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. And those are all at J M Wagoner. That's all my socials and I teach with a friend of mine named Murphy.

[01:07:56] Our teaching collaborative is called Way of the Weaver,[01:08:00]

[01:08:00] we teach about magic and ritual and community building within a social justice framework, and we're a very queer centric, inclusive community. We have a lot of fun together and we don't. We don't teach from a specific tradition. It's more like a, like an open source like toolkit.

[01:08:16] Like if you want to do magic or ritual, you can learn with us and learn some different kind of ways to get started in that practice. And if you're interested in that type of thing, it's wayoftheweaver. com. You can find more info there. And the next thing we have coming up is Weaver Camp. And Weaver Camp is super fun.

[01:08:34] It's a four day witchy camp for grownups on the side of a mountain. On the side of a mountain in Vermont. It's really super fun. And that's coming up in June. I think camp this year is June 27th through the 30th. So if you want to check all that out, wayoftheweaver. com. We also have a podcast as well, and it's very casual.

[01:08:51] Like Murphy and I just chit chat for 20 or 30 minutes about real life stuff. Random magical topics.

[01:08:57] Ashley: Oh,

[01:08:58] Jamie: Yeah. I myself [01:09:00] will be at Mystic South, which is a really fun conference. So if you're into paganism, metaphysics, witchcraft, things like that, and you like air conditioning because it's indoors,

[01:09:10] Ashley: Nice. Yeah!

[01:09:11] Jamie: That's gonna be really fun. I'm teaching a workshop about Hades there, and I'm also doing a ritual. One of the evenings, and it's going to be an underworld ritual with Hades and Hecate there. That's going to be really fun and the other thing that I want to mention is some, a recent development.

[01:09:27] I was invited to be a, quote, professional expert, unquote, at DragonCon in Atlanta. So

[01:09:36] Ashley: Awesome,

[01:09:39] Jamie: so excited. I've I used to live in Atlanta for many years, so I've been, DragonCon is like a huge fandom, Comic Con type of event, only it's giant and it takes over all of downtown Atlanta for like six or seven days around Labor Day each year.

[01:09:54] And so I've, I've gone around it, like around the edges, like I've been to the parade and I've watched some of the cosplayers and [01:10:00] stuff like that, but now I'm actually going to be on site at the conference Being a professional weirdo. So I'm really excited to see what happens with that.

[01:10:09] And it's a really fun event. If you're anywhere near Atlanta and you feel like attending those things and you're there, like, hit me up on social media, give me a shout out or something and say, Hey, I'm over here. I would love to meet you and say hi and chat. Yeah, so that's some of the stuff I have coming up.

[01:10:25] Ashley: so you have a fun summer

[01:10:26] Jamie: I do.

[01:10:27] Ashley: up. Yes, everybody join Jamie for her awesome summer. Yeah, this sounds, oh, those are like a really fun events. Oh, that sounds awesome. Weaver Camp sounds like a good ass

[01:10:38] Jamie: Oh, yeah. It's really fun. Weaver Camp is amazing. And we all of our Way of the Weaver options, actually everything that I ever do has a sliding scale. Because we try to make it affordable for any folks that want to come. If that's something that, if you're looking at it and you want to come, but you maybe need a little bit of help to make that happen, make sure you always reach out to us.

[01:10:56] Yeah.

[01:10:56] Ashley: awesome. Thank you, I love that. I always appreciate when people do things like that. I [01:11:00] think it's wonderful.

[01:11:01] Jamie: All right.

[01:11:02] Ashley: Okay, everybody so thank you so much jamie for being here i appreciate it and everybody you're listening to dine with the divine if You didn't know you can find us on here we go youtube threads instagram facebook I think that's all the places and then If you want to email me you have any questions critiques suggestions anything like that feel free to email me at dine with the divine pod at gmail.

[01:11:28] com. and if, or go to the website, fill out a form, anything like that, anything you want. We also we all, I always appreciate reviews. If you can give me a review on Apple podcast or Spotify, I really appreciate it. Five stars is always preferable, but whatever you want to say, just say it with your chest.

[01:11:46] It's not a problem. And if you want to follow me, Ashley, I'm Sankofa H S that's S A N K O F A. Hs on instagram and threads and i'm seeing coping healing sanctuary on facebook everyone I [01:12:00] hope you have an amazing week and I will see you all Next week. Bye