North Asian Shamanisn with David Shi

David

===

[00:00:00] Ashley: Hello everybody and welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm your host Ashley and together as usual we'll be exploring the magical, the mystical, and everything in between. On today's episode we're going to talk about North Asian shamanism and a woman who will stop at nothing to get her job done. So I hope everyone's having a great day and I hope you're having a great week and if not I hope it gets better soon.

[00:00:29] So today we have a fantastic guest david Shi, the author of the recently released book, Spirit Voices, is a shamanic worker and folk magic practitioner who primarily engages in traditional North Asian forms of shamanism. He is primarily of Manchurian descent, but can also trace his ancestry to Mongolian, Chinese, Korean.

[00:00:53] As well as a little Tongish Siberian and ancient Central Asian Turkic heritage as well. Raised in a household [00:01:00] that incorporated both Southeast Siberian and North Chinese practices. David has dedicated his spare time to the study of spiritual traditions of his ancestors and of the greater Eurasia.

[00:01:11] Now, I'm not going to be able to say this. Recognized as a Shagasha? Shagasha. Shagasha. And a Ongotengerte? Ongotengerte. Okay, sorry about that everybody. Thank you David. A future shaman prior to initiation. Among both Mongolian and Korean shamans, David's practices are deeply rooted in spirit work, in which ancestral spirits and land spirits are called to empower all workings.

[00:01:40] David's readings incorporate a combination of tarot, bones, jaw harp, as well as Mongolian stone divination known as kumult. Kumalak in Turkic Central Asia. Okay, at least I got that one right. Woo! Okay. Jeez, I'm so sorry. How are you, David?

[00:01:58] David: I'm good. Doing [00:02:00] well. It's I actually just recently came back from Mongolia, maybe about two weeks ago.

[00:02:05] I'm over the jet lag. I'm back into the grind of, work and everything.

[00:02:12] Ashley: Oh, boy. Okay, that's good. Oh, man. Mongolia's one of those places this is very embarrassing. But there used to be a show on A lot of people may remember this, on MTV called My Super Sweet 16. And then they had a show, where, I don't remember the name of it, but they took these girls, mostly, from, on My Super Sweet 16, and put them in like different parts of the world, to live with people who are completely different with them.

[00:02:37] One of them, they were in I'm pretty sure it was Central Mongolia. And it was, like, the cutest family that they put this girl with. And she's like oh my god, I have to milk cows all the time. But then, at the end, she was like, this is great. The family was, like, the sweetest people ever. And ever since then, I was like, oh my god, I love Mongolia.

[00:02:58] I was like, [00:03:00] just cause I saw this, like, one. Sweet family and their beautiful yurt and she learned how to put the yurt up and it was like really adorable. Yeah, it was like serious So that is my knowledge of Mongolia anyway

[00:03:17] I always start with asking how did you get to where you are in your spiritual journey? How'd you get here?

[00:03:23] David: It's funny. It's I want to say I was called into it, but I I, in a way, I was almost forced into it, semi kicking and screaming. Because the thing is, within pretty much traditional North Asian shamanic practice, it's actually not something that we have a choice.

[00:03:41] The way that it works is that we have ancestral spirits, specific ancestral spirits, who did shamanic work when they were alive. And part of The responsibility is that when they become spirits, they choose the next generations to essentially do the same thing, [00:04:00] and now they serve as the spirits, and it's a cycle, and so on.

[00:04:03] People who are... In, in that sense, people who do shamanic work, people who do become shamans, it's not something that they choose, it's not something that they study to become, it's something that they're chosen to do and they're forced to, forced in it. Now for me personally being having been born and raised in the U.

[00:04:21] S., with my atheist parents, I had no exposure to any of this before it, it started to happen. When it did start to happen, luckily, the specific ancestral shamanic spirits I have, they're actually very sweet. They're like, like two grandmas, basically. So they, they were, I think to the best of their ability, they eased me into it.

[00:04:40] They basically gave them and other ancestral spirits came to me in dreams going like, you should find out more about what we did, what we specifically do. This is something that your parents and grandparents have no idea, but something that, that you should figure out. Yeah. And over time, it's, the thing is, [00:05:00] Because they were primarily Manchurian spirits and there's very little written about Manchurian people today.

[00:05:06] It had to get to the point where my spirit said to me in dreams, Look at our neighbors and look to see what our neighbors did. And so naturally, I started exploring, the Siberian peoples, the Mongolian peoples, to some extent the Korean peoples too. The Chinese people don't. They have spiritual practice, but it's not specifically shamanic.

[00:05:25] So it's basically the other three. And it was actually through talking, through a journey of meeting people, meeting people online, then eventually meeting them in person even just across the world in places like Mongolia and Korea finding people from those traditions, meeting with their elders.

[00:05:44] That, piece by piece, I started to figure out what it was that I was supposed to do and they were actually able to, in a way, interpret what it was that my ancestral spirits were trying to tell me through dreams and through visions and through other even in, in moments when [00:06:00] I fall into trance and they tell me things, it's, it was these people that I met, these elders that start to explain to me what was going on and things start falling in place and then step by step my practice began to form into what it is now.

[00:06:16] And a lot of it is actually informed by Mongolian teachings. Because actually Mongolian teachings and Manchurian teachings are very, very similar. Especially along the lines of spiritual and shamanic practice. So that's, so you know, step by step I start to learn more and more teachings and really and along the way gain their trust because you need to gain their trust before they Tell you anything.

[00:06:38] Mm hmm. So it's in so that's the process and in many ways. I'm still in that process You may have noticed that in my introduction that I have technically not gone through initiation yet because within our practice We're supposed to find specific teachers from specific traditions to initiate us.

[00:06:57] We can't just have anyone initiate us Okay, even [00:07:00] particularly with some of my friends and their elders funny story They their particular tribe actually used to be at war with my ancestral peoples and tribes. Interesting. And to the point where their shamanic spirits were actually also warriors against my ancestors, ah. Initiating with them would have been a very bad idea.

[00:07:21] Ashley: Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. There probably would have been some tension in the room.

[00:07:29] David: Literally, my friend's elders, even, I couldn't even go to a particular ceremony because she actually asked her elder if I could go along to that ceremony and his response was.

[00:07:39] Do you like him or do you want him to die? Oh, no. If you want to kill him, bring him along. Oh, no. like, alright.

[00:07:52] Ashley: Wow, okay. They were like, no, we're still, we're still not cool with this. Like, oh, okay. No problem, guys.[00:08:00]

[00:08:01] Oh, man. Okay. And we're gonna get more into it later in the podcast. But I started Reading your book and I was like, man, like These North Asian ancestors are so busy. They're like the busiest ancestors I've ever seen. Like, they have so much to do. I'm like, these people, they don't rest. Like, everybody's like, oh, these people, they rest in peace.

[00:08:26] North Asian people are not resting in peace. They are busy. They are busy picking who they're going to have next. Like, telling people what to do. I'm like, man, these are the... busiest ancestors I've ever seen. I love it. They're talking, they're doing, and we're going to get more into this because

[00:08:45] I was like, good grief. I was like, this is so intense.

[00:08:53] So much. But Yeah, I'm gonna get into it. Don't worry. So first, we're gonna do our dish of the week and our dish of the week [00:09:00] this week is was a weird one because I was like, what are we gonna do? And David told me some things that he liked, but now they were like, you're gonna talk about we're gonna talk about fly a Garrick because I There's a lot of like, lore around Fly Agaric, and then a lot of the lore actually does have to do with North Asian Shamanism.

[00:09:15] And I don't know if it's true or not, but we're just gonna talk about it. So

[00:09:19] David: it's only partially true. Okay. And actually, let me say this. It is barely true. Okay. And the reason why I say that, it's, I don't know how or why, but the concept of using Fly Agaric Mushroom has been blown way out of proportion.

[00:09:33] It's like so hyper sensationalized. Yeah. Within North Asia, there's many, many, many, many different tribes, and they all have their own traditions. Maybe only, like, two of them use the fly agaric mushroom for any spiritual purpose. And they are in the far northeast, like Kamchatka region. Like, basically a part of Siberia that's next to Alaska. Like, that area.

[00:09:53] Oh, yeah, yeah,

[00:09:53] Ashley: yeah. Okay. Makes sense.

[00:09:55] David: Only, like, maybe two, two, maybe three, but I think it's just two tribes. Actually [00:10:00] do use it and that's because it grows prolifically there So it's hard to miss and that's the main reason that they use it actually the vast majority And this is a buzzkill for a lot of people in the US for some reason.

[00:10:12] Mm hmm pretty, it's fair to broadly say that North Asian people's and their spirituality and their shamanic practices They don't use mind altering substance. They don't ingest mind altering substance. It's just not a thing. Yeah It's a thing in, I know it's a thing in South America, and I know it's a thing in various parts of the world, but within North Asia, it's pretty much just not a thing.

[00:10:35] It's only two tribes use this mushroom, and they don't, they use it very sparingly. Like they, it's, they almost, to the point where it's, when they go into trance, and when they go into practice, they're still primarily using, it's They're, they're tools, and to, to induce trans, and then, like, the fly garrick mushroom is almost like a garnish, if anything.

[00:10:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so that, so that's it. It's, I don't [00:11:00] know why, I, like, starting from, since, like, 2014, Like, I've seen articles about, like, blown out of proportion. They're like, oh yeah, tribes in Siberia use this, and it's like, oh, it's a, like, a magical thing, and I'm like, I, I, I've barely heard of it.

[00:11:16] Like it's, like those two tribes, they're not even big tribes, they're very small tribes. Yeah. I thought you'd use it.

[00:11:21] Ashley: Okay, that's exactly why I want to talk about it. Cause number one, everybody loves you everybody loves the picture. So if you guys don't know what Fly Agaric is, it's that mushroom with the red top and the white spots.

[00:11:31] That everybody loves and it's very cute. I love it too, I think I have some sights with it on. So don't worry. But also... That's how I know it wasn't used, because I was like looking it up, just because I had heard of this, but nobody could ever say what tribe used it. They were just like, it's been used for thousands of years!

[00:11:49] I'm like, by who? And it's like, is it a secret? Somebody tell me! So that's how I was like, I don't trust that the narrative, because like, nobody's [00:12:00] specifying, there's no like, literature about it. Cause,

[00:12:03] David: cause if they put the names of the tribes, anyone can look up those names and find out how, I mean, full respect to those tribes, but they're not a very numerous people.

[00:12:12] Ashley: So it's like, exactly. Somebody might ask one of them, and they'll be like, no. And then you'll be like, ah, it's all done.

[00:12:19] David: And I'll be it now, if we're really dishing I really hate it when people say that, Santa Claus was shaman who was a shaman who used this mushroom. I hate these articles cause that's the most, I'll be honest, that's the most bullshit thing I've ever heard.

[00:12:34] Sorry. I'm

[00:12:38] Ashley: just laughing because it's like. First of all, the whole Santa Claus thing is like a very well documented thing, like, like, about Saint Nicholas, like, you can read it anywhere, like, so it has nothing to do with it, but, like, I'm not gonna lie, I used to believe all this stuff, too, until, like, this week, everybody like, really reading, I said, wow, I've been misinformed.

[00:12:59] [00:13:00] They were lying to me! That's crazy. Also... Just like David was saying, it's like real, real north where it grows. Like, north, north. Like, Siberia north. Like, Arctic north. Arctic north! Like, it's not a joke. There's it's, it's hallucinogenic. It's like rarely, I've always heard, too, like, if you eat it, you're gonna die.

[00:13:18] But, literally, you'd have to eat a whole bunch, and you'd have to eat it, like, For days on end and only that to die like you're not gonna die. You can literally say the same

[00:13:25] David: thing about almonds. Yes

[00:13:32] Ashley: It's like it's not that bad and like probably if you eat it and you also have to eat it raw to get like Poison and if you eat it, you're probably just gonna get like a headache and you're gonna poop And you're gonna throw up and you'll feel really shitty And then you'll probably be fine. Like 12 hours later.

[00:13:49] It's like,

[00:13:49] David: life's gonna suck, but it's not gonna end.

[00:13:51] Ashley: Yeah, exactly! You'll just feel bad. Like, and then you'll be okay. It's like, when you get a like, 24 hour stomach virus, that's [00:14:00] how you're gonna feel. You're gonna feel shit for a day, and then you'll be, drink some Gatorade, you'll be alright. And it's all because it has this thing called Bufotinine, which is a weak hallucinogenic agent.

[00:14:12] agent, but it is going to make you sick. So just don't. It's stupid. It can make your blood pressure go up. It's found around pine trees. And they, another thing that people talk about, and again, I'm not going to say if this is true or not, because I didn't get like super reputable sites for all this, but they would say like a lot of reindeer eat it.

[00:14:32] This is a thing everybody says, and the reindeer would eat it. And then the reindeer would get like High off it. I don't know. I don't know if that's true, but just know that this is what it's saying out there, and we don't have good sources for this, okay? I mean, people,

[00:14:45] David: people in those areas, because of the frigid landscape, people are not farmers, they are ranchers.

[00:14:50] They're basically, they're, they're animal herders. Yeah, yeah. And if you herd animals, it's a good chance that livestock are gonna eat what they see.

[00:14:58] Ashley: Exactly, they're gonna eat [00:15:00] whatever and like, maybe you have a high reindeer here and there and then they're fine. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a big deal. That's our Food of the Week, guys.

[00:15:08] You can look up more about it, but just know that it's not everything that they say. And go to the Wikipedia page, because it has all the scientific facts on there, which are actually pretty. It doesn't really have a lot of the bullshit. Read about Viagaric, it's interesting. And it's pretty, so that's it.

[00:15:22] Now we're gonna get into tea time, where we're gonna learn from David's book, some Norse Asian shamanic basics. Because there's a lot going on here, and I'm nervous. Where does the word shaman come from?

[00:15:34] David: Yeah, so pretty much any resource that anyone picks up will say that the word comes from Siberia.

[00:15:40] Like it targets people. Yeah. And that's where the sentence ends. Every time. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. No more detail.

[00:15:49] Ashley: Exactly.

[00:15:52] David: Yeah, literally, the reason why I wrote this book is to provide that more detail.

[00:15:57] Ashley: Exactly. I, like, I. I call [00:16:00] myself a shamanic practitioner. I don't call myself a shaman because I'm not like I don't that's not my word I do like a lot of spiritual journeys and stuff and I've learned from like a core shamanism standpoint.

[00:16:09] So That's what I learned about the word shaman. And that's I was like, oh, it's not my word. I'm not gonna use it. But one thing that is interesting that you put in your book that I learned was like Oh, so like, this one guy heard it, and then it was like, in Russia, and then it spread to France, and then everybody's like, SHAMAN!

[00:16:25] Like, everyone just started using the word, which I thought was interesting! Yeah, no, it's

[00:16:29] David: because, it's during the time of colonialism, when these, they were exploring the rest of the world, they see spiritual elders from all these different traditions around the world, they didn't want to use a word from their own spiritual, they didn't want to say priest, or they didn't want to say, like, and, and, they didn't want to use any Christian, or even like, Jewish Muslim terms.

[00:16:49] They want to use a term that was foreign, that didn't apply to them, in a way to make it like an otherization. It's basically like, they are not us, if anything. It's almost like, [00:17:00] in fact, they use it to almost say like a savage priest. That's how they, so that's why they basically took this one word that they heard from the Russians and they called, and they used it everywhere.

[00:17:12] And native peoples in the rest of the world are like, what, what's, what's that word?

[00:17:22] Ashley: Like, there's so many cultures around the world that have a. Somebody who is like a shaman, like, and whatever word that your culture or whatever culture uses, but that's not your word. So it's always like, yeah, what happened to all the rest of the words? I'm sure there was way more, like, like, and we all have different traditions.

[00:17:42] But a lot of, yeah, go ahead. I

[00:17:44] David: do want to talk about why it's important to use this. Separate words, and that's because the word shaman from these languages has a very specific meaning. And this, and even in modern English usage, it's, it's become an umbrella word. That [00:18:00] specificity is lost. And in my, in my efforts, futile as they may be, I try to, like, tell people what, specifically what it is.

[00:18:08] And the thing is, People have become very attached to the word shaman that when I say what they do is technically not shamanism, they get very offended. So I, I just want to and this is from my book, like specifically what a shaman is. It is a person who was chosen by the spirits when they're born or sometimes before they're born, usually when they're born to to serve as the bridge between the human world and the spirit world in which they go into deliberate, controlled, and repeatable trans states in order to, one, go through transpossession with through their shamanic spirits, or two, conduct spirit flight in which their souls are escorted by their shamanic spirits to the spirit world to do things there, and that's actually where core shamanism got the word [00:19:00] shamanic journey from.

[00:19:01] And the reason why And parts of this definition is going to sound familiar to every spiritual practice around the world. Where I want to draw the difference is that the difference between a shaman and any other spiritual elder or practitioner is that shamans are chosen by spirits when they are born, and like you said, ancestors are busy, right?

[00:19:21] Yeah, yeah! So basically, those ancestral shamanic spirits, they're constantly with the shaman. It's, there's no, like, invite them in, send them off, they're always around. If you do need to induce trans states and call them in, you're literally calling them into your body at that point.

[00:19:39] Yeah. And, and so one, one thing I want to also... Because I see a lot on the online Facebook shamanic groups, people get hung up on, Oh, a shaman is this because they do things. A shaman is not defined by what they do. A shaman is defined by what, how they are born. And what they are. Because if we're defining it by what they do, The vast [00:20:00] majority of what a shaman does is not that different from what Any other spiritual elder practitioner does.

[00:20:05] And only because those things are easier and less tiring to do. Yeah. Because like 80 percent of what we do is the exact same as what everyone else does. That other 20 percent is what we are empowered to do if we have to. And it's because of that intimate shaman and spirit relationship. That type of intimate controlling relationship.

[00:20:31] is what facilitates and allows a shaman to do a lot of things safely. So that's, so that's really the difference between a shaman and any other spiritual practitioner or elder. And a lot of what a, a the thing with a shaman is, and I mentioned earlier, it's a, it's a relationship and responsibility.

[00:20:52] It's something that we have to do. If we don't do it our spirits will actually punish us if we don't, if we [00:21:00] don't go that, down that path. And also people who are not chosen cannot go down that path because , it's not some, people say we're gatekeepers. It's not gatekeeping, it's we're trying to keep you safe.

[00:21:10] Because because without that type of intimate relationship and that intimate partnership where they're constantly there, Shamanism becomes very dangerous work. And so that's pretty much the only reason. That's why in some in some of the tribes in North Asia, they actually see being a shaman as a curse.

[00:21:28] And, this is more detailed than I go into the book, but it's part of the responsibilities of being a shaman is that we do need to also not only just Develop ourselves, but also keep our lineage healthy so that after we pass, we can then choose the next generation and serve as shamanic spirits ourselves.

[00:21:50] And within the the world of, of traditional shamans, there is actually a saying that if we don't have descendants who can work with [00:22:00] us as shamanic spirits, we actually essentially become stuck. We can't reincarnate. We're actually, us, people who are chosen to be shamans, we don't reincarnate anymore.

[00:22:08] We're in our last reincarnation because we have to serve as a spirit in the next, like, after we pass. And if someone doesn't work with us in that capacity, we're stuck in limbo there. Oh no!

[00:22:19] Ashley: Oh, oh

[00:22:24] my gosh. Oh, it's like... So it's so funny because I'm used to reading about just like different like horse shamanism is what I'm used to reading about. So then when I started reading your book, I was like, my goodness. I was like, this is so much more like, I, it made, first of all, it helped me understand a lot of things.

[00:22:45] So I like, I'm not even through the whole book yet. I read some highlights and then I started really reading it. But like it started helping me like understand a lot of things about. Just like the whole culture. I was like, wow, this is it's just fascinating [00:23:00] and the way that Shamans work in this culture is like on such a like you're just talking about such a deep level having to have this Relationship with your spirits because and we're gonna talk about it in our story It gets really hairy At times and when you think about it a lot of people think of Okay, we're just talking about general shamanic practice.

[00:23:25] I don't what most people are thinking of a lot of time in the West and people think like, oh, it's so cool and this and that. But like you said, some of these people are like, no, this is probably a curse for you. Like, because they're like, this is too much work. Like it's too much work. It's too much responsibility.

[00:23:41] Like, oh my goodness. Like it's exhausting. Who wants to do that on purpose?

[00:23:46] David: I literally watched a Korean documentary film because Korean shamanism is actually has. roots to Siberian shamanism, and there was literally a scene where, like, a grandmother is crying because she was praying that her grandchildren [00:24:00] wouldn't be chosen to be shamans, but they were, and she had to go through initiation with them, and she was crying because she was like, I didn't want this life for you, oh, wow. Yeah.

[00:24:10] Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, it's, you heard it here first, folks. Read this book because you'll be like, what? Quick the little history that David gives us, he talks about how it's probably a lot of the, practices, they probably started in northwestern Mongolia or around Lake, Bacai?

[00:24:29] Bicol, yeah. Bicol, sorry, in Siberia around 10, 000 years ago and there's been, there were writings about it in, by the Chinese after they kept going to war. They, you remember everybody, now, never, don't get mad at me, but this is gonna be your reference. Remember in Mulan,

[00:24:48] what is this gonna be? If you don't know the history, that's okay. Chinese history is extensive and I'm not. saying anything about it if you don't know. But just remember, remember how Mulan was always going into, they were always going to war and it was a [00:25:00] problem, that's why she had to do all that stuff?

[00:25:01] This is what I'm talking about. Like, they were fighting, right? But the Chinese were also writing down, they're like, they're doing all sorts of stuff up there, and it down. There's records of this about 2000 years ago. And then it spread all through the, we're gonna call it like the the Eurasian steppe, so the steppe is like All of those, the countries that end in stan, a lot of those countries.

[00:25:26] Then we go all the way towards Hungary, that area. Like even like the Kazakh people, everybody knows. You guys know the people who do the thing with the eagles. Like, and it's really cool. Like, they just like, those are Kazakh people and they're part of this group. Like, I love that.

[00:25:42] I watched like a whole documentary on this girl. She's 13 and she was like, in the first, in like her I think it was like her local, I don't know if it's her tribe or her town, I'm not sure, but to be like an eagle person, I don't know the accurate name, I'm really sorry if you're screaming right now and you're like, it's [00:26:00] improbable, I apologize but she was like the first girl in like generations and everybody was so excited in her town, they're like she's a girl and she's got eagles, it was really cool, anyway, I'm getting distracted, okay, so let's get back, so it spreads all the way even to like the, and I know I'm saying this wrong, I apologize to these people, I think it's the Sámi, Sámi?

[00:26:21] Sámi, yeah. Sámi people, they're the like indigenous people of like, Finland, Sweden, like in Scandinavia. They have really cool outfits. I'm gonna put a vlog. I love their outfits. They're so pretty. Anyway, let's go. Let's stop. Stop, Ashley. Don't get distracted. Okay, so we're gonna talk about trans states.

[00:26:41] David had talked a little bit about this. In North Asian shamanism, a lot of people, well not a lot of people, the shamans will go into these trance states. This usually starts with a consistent beat, like a drum or a knocking. And in this time they're calling in their spirits and asking the spirits, No, they're asking the spirits to come into them or [00:27:00] just to be where they are?

[00:27:01] Into them. Okay, into, here we go, it's getting wild, it's going into them. David gives a very good analogy about boiling water that I did not write down. I apologize, but I have written here boiling water analogy and then didn't write anything under it. Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm so sorry. I'm such a mess. Oh, I did.

[00:27:24] Wait, here it is. Okay, it's like getting heated up and then the spirit is there and like takes over the body once the person's like nice and hot and ready. Also during this time there's spiritual flight. And I thought it was really interesting in your book that you were saying, like, if you went to somebody who is a shaman in this area of the world, they may even be like, we don't do that.

[00:27:45] Where'd you hear about that? That's crazy. What are you talking about? Because it's okay. You guys listen, it's serious. David tells us all about it and I'm nervous. So it can be really, really dangerous [00:28:00] because doing this the shaman is doing so the shaman's And you correct me if I'm wrong, David, but they're doing this out of necessity.

[00:28:07] They're not doing this for fun. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[00:28:10] David: Okay. Yeah. Because going into the spirit world, and I think this is something that a lot of people in the West don't quite fully understand. It's actually, it's exhausting. It's spiritually exhausting. It's like running a marathon is physically exhausting.

[00:28:24] This is spiritually exhausting. And it's, and, and, and the thing is, they, People accuse us of having a quote unquote irrational fear of the spirit world, but it's basically like, it's basically like you're going into a neighborhood that you have no idea What what it's like you're just going to a blind and it's basically like Alice in Wonderland times three That's a bad analogy, but basically it's it's dangerous and when when and traditionally when shamans go into the spirit world It's because they can't handle the issue in the physical world.

[00:28:58] They need to go to the [00:29:00] spirits own turf So oftentimes when they do go it, it could be to like, it could be to negotiate, to bribe a spirit, to trick a spirit, sometimes even to fight a spirit. It's, they don't go, it's very different from in like Khorchamnism where people say go to the spirit world, and talk to a spirit and learn new things.

[00:29:20] It's, we, we don't do that. It's it's when we need to learn things, we usually we call the spirit, Our spirits into us and they'll tell us directly. We'll do divination. We have many different divination techniques It's when we really can't figure things out or there's something we really need to do in the spirit world That we cannot do here then we'll go and it carries a lot of risks now.

[00:29:44] Yeah, imagine not even just encountering spirits, but the spirit world has its own Geography and topography, it's like, there's like, you might go and you, you might go into the spirit world and then you, you run into a mountain and you're like, well, now where do [00:30:00] I go?

[00:30:02] Ashley: It's like, I've never been here, I don't know how to get around this

[00:30:09] mountain. I know yes,

[00:30:15] and you don't have a MapQuest or a Google Maps. So you don't know what to do. Your phone don't work there. So like, you might encounter mountains, rivers, oceans, all different stuff. The shaman could be tricked or trapped by spirits. Their ancestors could demand that they stay or take them back. Again, this is, you guys, you're going to see in our story, this happens, don't worry, don't worry.

[00:30:36] So then, they could, it's impossible that they could never return, this is so nerve wracking. The shamans who have to have like, super strong relationships with their spirits, Yes. to be able to do this, because think about it, you go, like David said, you're going into a place you don't know anything, and plus, when you think of spirits, right, we all know it, if you listen to this podcast, you know what that is, right?

[00:30:56] A spirit. It's not a worldly being. It's not like a [00:31:00] tough, big, tough guy you meet in an alley. It's a spirit that has you're not just gonna get beat up. These are otherworldly, they're up there. Like, they're not, they're way bigger and more knowledgeable and all that kind of stuff than us.

[00:31:12] They're not people. So you can't just be like, oh, I'll just bring my my knife and my brass knuckles. It's not gonna work. So then, they have a few different ways of doing this. They can climb up the world tree. The soul can fly directly out of the shaman's body. And even some shamans have, may have some protective clothing that they wear when they have to do these things.

[00:31:34] Shamanic spirits usually go along with them. They escort their souls. Okay, they escort the souls, making sense. You probably want to escort in this situation.

[00:31:41] So this is a big deal. They don't do that for fun. That's something they do. If there's like a situation they have to handle. So now we talk real quick about shamanic possession. So this is something that happens during, it starts with a trance state and the shaman their breathing could become erratic.

[00:31:59] [00:32:00] And I love how you wrote this. You're like, cause spirits don't breathe. Duh. I was like, that's such a good point. Like, they don't know how to breathe. They're like, wait a minute. What is this? Can you imagine never having to breathe and all of a sudden you're like, What is going on? That's so scary. The horse spirits are so nervous.

[00:32:21] They're like, what? So the shaman may sing songs. That are meant to calm the spirits, but these are not songs you're gonna go around singing when you're like, taking the garbage out, because you're not, that's not what you're doing it, this is for the shaman, or it's like a secret thing. They may do dances, they can do things, and I've seen this it's different, obviously, different traditions but in different parts of the world, you'll see this happen all the time.

[00:32:47] They go, they have trans, they're in a trans spirit, and they'll do things, they'll make moves they even, I forget what country it was but people put pins through their face and, different kinds of stuff, yeah, and they [00:33:00] won't get hurt, and sometimes they won't even bleed. You'll be looking at it, you'll, they will not bleed because they're in these trans states, and their bodies are being taken over by these spirits.

[00:33:10] It's very intense, and just like David had said before, when there's a calling, the, It's something that you can't avoid. People, if they try to avoid these callings of being a shaman, they could become severely ill, and they keep going to the doctor, and the doctor's like, there's literally nothing physically wrong with you, we can't figure it out, but you're like, doctor, I feel like shit.

[00:33:35] And the doctor's like, I don't know what to do. So in these cases, you probably have to go to a shaman or A traditional healer, and this happens in different places around the world, but in this case, this is happening here because it's, that's how they get called, like David talked about extensively before and the older they get, which I thought was really interesting, but it makes sense to me people could go into psychosis and like different [00:34:00] issues if they don't heed this call of becoming a shaman and doing, like I said, the ancestors are telling this person, you have to do this, if they don't do, listen to them, Listen, okay, this is my other thing.

[00:34:11] I love my ancestors, too. They have nudged me to do things I wasn't in the mood to do, either. Like, not these particular things, but different stuff. But like, realizing spirits, again, they don't have time or space. They don't, and it's not that they don't understand emotions, but they don't care so much about your emotions if you're not doing what they're asking you to do.

[00:34:35] If you go, if you go... If your mind goes, they're like, Well, you shouldn't have done what we asked you to do. It's not my fault that you're having a psychotic episode, it's yours. Do what we told you and we'll make it stop. But like, yeah. Spirits, they're loving, but they're also demanding.

[00:34:52] David: I mean, it's a tough love, for sure.

[00:34:54] Yeah! Especially, and one thing I do want to emphasize is that a lot of people [00:35:00] in the U. S. or, even in Europe, they have this assumption that, Shamans and shamanic spirits are like enlightened beings or enlightened peoples, but it's the furthest from the truth. Because, shamans become shamans, not by choice, it's their, they're forced to.

[00:35:16] And, it's, and even their spirits, like we mentioned, they can have, They can pass away, become a spirit, and still be very petty, and still have very, have very petty, demands, or thoughts, or some weird trauma that has, who knows if it's ever going to be resolved it's, like, one of my friends in Mongolia, it's I You know, she, she literally told me like, Oh yeah, I have spirit, I have multiple spirits in situations where one killed the other one.

[00:35:45] And they both have their own side of the story. And they're both telling me the sides of the story.

[00:35:57] Ashley: Oh, gosh. Why is that so funny? [00:36:00] Spirit number two's like, what did he say I did? Actually, it went down like

[00:36:10] this. And she's just sitting there like, okay, like, I don't know what to do.

[00:36:15] David: It's like, okay, great. Here's some

[00:36:16] Ashley: offerings. I'll see you guys tomorrow.

[00:36:24] Oh my god. I love that. With all of that that we just mentioned, we're going to go into our story because our story details exactly everything we just talked about and why it's very dangerous and hard to be a shaman. It's not a game to play. Okay, so this is the tale, excuse me, frog in my throat. This is the tale of the Nishan Shaman.

[00:36:47] So this tale comes from A bunch of different peoples, including Manchurian people, Burat, Ivank, yeah, Ivank, Dor, and Nanni peoples. These are [00:37:00] peoples who currently live in Russia, Mongolia, and parts of, northern China. Mm hmm. I read this story and I was like, I like this story, because I like this woman.

[00:37:09] Okay, so there's this guy. Alright, this guy, and his name was buldo Bayan. Buldo Bayan is our main character. Okay. Well, for the first half. He worked for the empire and he was, he had a lot of money. He had a lot of land and he had a lot of cattle. This is great for him. He's living a good life but he was constantly worried because he had one son and he was always worried that something bad was going to happen to his son because he wanted to leave all his son, like, all his stuff when he died.

[00:37:38] He was 15 and he really, really wanted to hunt. But his dad was super worried and he's like, Oh my God, I don't want you to hunt. Like something bad could happen to you. But he's like, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please. And there was a special, there was this special hunting thing.

[00:37:51] It's like a ceremony, but a way that they hunted and he really wanted to do it. So it's called the ABA. So this hunting. It was like the [00:38:00] hunters would form a big circle, and then they would move towards the center, herding the prey, towards the center, and then they would then get the prey.

[00:38:10] And these hunts that they did, they had super strict rules, because they didn't want to violate any taboos or have any bad luck fall upon them. The, again, back to the sun, the sun was like, please, dad, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, I love you so much, dad, please, please, I love you so And the dad was like, Oh my God, I love you so much.

[00:38:25] I guess I'll let you do this now. So he went on the hunt, right? So the son went, but during the hunt, somebody, one of the other men there must have broken a taboo or he did, we don't know. And all of a sudden he got real, real sick and he died. Oh my God, this is terrible. So his dad obviously was devastated because he was like, my whole life I've been trying to protect my son and now this happened.

[00:38:50] He's so upset. So then a couple of years the parents decided to do what they could, so they were following [00:39:00] all the customs of their town, which included making a lot of acts of generosity, helping people who were needy, sharing their wealth, helping restore sacred places because they were like really devastated that this thing happened.

[00:39:13] So they were like okay, we're gonna just do our best to like live our life good and honor the spirits and things like that. So with their kindness the goddess Umeng, the goddess Umeng wanted to bless them with a new son, so she did. And when Buldo was years old, they had a son. And they named the son, Par excuse me, Hirigiri.

[00:39:39] Hirigiri. Hirigiri is what we're going with right now. Try my best. Hirigiri. He's a new kid on the block. Of course, The dad, once again, is super overprotective of Hiragini, because he's like, I don't want him to die, like my other son did, this is so nerve wracking, like, I love him so much, I want everything to go well.

[00:39:57] Hiragini grew up in this super [00:40:00] overprotective environment, he really wanted to get out, but then, once again, like his first son, when he turned 15, he's like, oh, dad, please, I want to go on the hunt, it looks like so much fun! And dad was like, no, like, please, you cannot do it, like, you cannot do it. And then, Hiragiti begged him and he loved him so much and he was like, Oh my god, I love you so much and I want you to be happy, so I'll let you do it.

[00:40:23] So he went. And then, guess what happened? Let's start with the fact that his, Voldo was like, Okay, Hiragiti's really good with his bow, so maybe nothing will happen. He's very good. He's a terrific marksman. He can do it, but then, Hiragiri went on the hunt, and he all of a sudden, out of nowhere, got really, really sick and died.

[00:40:48] So the assistant to Buldo, who went with Hirokiti, was the one who saw that he died. And he came back, two of his servants came back, and they told Buldo what [00:41:00] happened.

[00:41:00] Buldo was super, super upset. He couldn't believe it happened. He was literally, absolutely devastated. And when the servant got to the house, before he opened his mouth, he fell down crying. And Buldo just knew what happened. So Buldo was like, okay, this is what we're going to do. We're going to have a funeral.

[00:41:17] He's like, bring sheep, goats, cows, everything, and we're going to have a big funeral feast. So they set the table, and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, comes this old man. He's just walking up to them. So Boldo thinks, oh, maybe he's hungry, so that's fine. So he tells his servant like, oh, can you make that guy a plate?

[00:41:38] So he goes to give the guy a plate and the guy in the old man's like, what are you giving me this for? The guy's like, are you hungry? He's like, no, no, no. I need to speak to the man of the house. I need to speak to the chief around here. So Buldo comes out and he's like, my friend, what's going on? And the guy was like why don't you, instead of having this big funeral feast, why don't you do something to bring back your [00:42:00] son?

[00:42:00] And Buldo's kind of like, what? And he's like. Why don't you do something to bring back your son? He's like, you haven't heard of getting a shaman to bring your son back to life? And Voldo's like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. He's like, first of all, do you think, of course, all I want in this world is to bring my son back.

[00:42:17] But there's three shamans in this area and they're all charlatans. And they just make a living by deceiving people. I don't trust those people. And the old guy was like, ha ha, you haven't heard of this one. He's like, let me tell you, it's like, there's a shamaness on the banks of the Nishani River.

[00:42:37] Her name is Tiki, and they call her the Nishan Shaman. And she's capable of bringing dead people back to life. If She could probably resurrect Hariti probably like 17 times if he needed to and he's like, he's like, you better get out there quickly before, and gruesome, but before Hariti's body, like, isn't so good anymore.

[00:42:59] He's like, you [00:43:00] better get out there to go talk to her. So he's like, fine. The old man walks away and I forgot this part. The old man walked away. And without taking a bite from the food, he climbed onto a cloud, which carried him to the sky. I totally forgot that part that I wrote down in my notes, that's awesome.

[00:43:19] So Buldo was like, oh my god, that's a Tengger, which is a god, correct Steven, Yeah,

[00:43:26] David: like, like a heavenly spirit. Yeah. Okay,

[00:43:27] Ashley: a heavenly spirit. All right. So it was a Tengger that told him this. So Buldo was like, okay, so this must be true. Like, I believe a spirit. Buldo was like, oh my God. So he got down, he got, he prostrated himself where the Tengger was because he's like, giving honor to him.

[00:43:45] And then he was like, I get it. I gotta go. I gotta go. So he leaves. So he leaves the thief and he's got to go to the river to go find this shaman. So he gets to the river and he doesn't know who she is. He doesn't know what she looks like. [00:44:00] There's no Facebook for this shaman. There's no listing on Instagram.

[00:44:03] He doesn't know who she is. It doesn't matter. He's got to save his time. So he gets there and he first sees this really young woman and he says, excuse me, sister, can you tell me where I can find the Nishan shaman? And she's like, Oh, she lives on the other side of the river. And he's like, Oh, okay, no problem.

[00:44:21] Thank you. So he gets back on his horse and goes to the other side of the river. Where he sees an older woman sitting by the door, and she's just like, smoking her pipe, chillin And, he's like, excuse me grandmother, excuse me, do you know where the Nishan Shaman lives? Are you the Nishan Shaman? And she's like, no, I'm not.

[00:44:38] She actually lives on the EAST side of the river. He's like, damn, I just came from there. Okay, okay, no problem. So he, so he gets back on his horse. And he's galloping. He's galloping. And he gets back to that young lady's house that he met before. And he doesn't know where she is. So he knocks this time because she was out hanging clothes, but she's gone now.

[00:44:59] [00:45:00] And there was an older woman who answers the door and he's like, Oh, excuse me, ma'am. Are you the Nishan Shaman? And she's like, I'm not the Nishan Shaman. Actually the young girl over there, she's the Nishan Shaman. She was just messing with you. And he's like, Oh, yeah.

[00:45:20] So she's like, okay, she's like, no problem. And so she's like, yeah, sorry, I was just playing a joke on you. What's good? And the guy's like, I have a problem, a serious, serious problem. My 15 year old son, he passed away suddenly. And I really need to know why he died. Like, I just, I just need to know. And he didn't even care at this point.

[00:45:42] Like if she said yes or no, he had to try something, right? Like. He just had to find out. The Nishan Shaman, she reached into her bag, and she took out these sheep ankle bones, which she used to do like, she used to use divination. So she throws them on the ground, and then she stands on a stool, and she looks at [00:46:00] them, and she begins to sing and drum.

[00:46:02] And soon, just like we talked about earlier, the trance state, she gets into a trance state, and she's able to get the answers for him. So she says, this is what she says. Listen, listen well, and if what I say is not true, tell me. You had a son when you were 25, but an evil spirit took him from you. When at the age of 15, he was hunting.

[00:46:22] He fell ill and died. Then when you reached the age of 50, you had another son, who you named Haridi. When he was 15 years old, he wanted to participate in the hunt. But he was so, he was so good and he excelled with the bow, that he caught the attention of Erlang Khan, Lord of the Underworld. who sent one of the spirits to snatch his soul.

[00:46:43] Oh, shit. He didn't know all this! Like, Bolto was like, What?! And I was like, Jeez, I didn't know it was this deep. I was like, So then she was silent for a minute, right? And then she's like, Alright, in your house, you have a dog that was born the same day as your son, [00:47:00] and you have a three year old rooster.

[00:47:03] And if what I said is it is she screamed it. And he's like, Oh my God! And Buldo, Buldo was like, Yeah, it's so, it's you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. And he's like, Oh my God, I cannot believe that, you know all this. And she's like, I'm the shamaness of Nishan! Like, this is what I do!

[00:47:22] So then, Buldo, he gets on all fours, he's prostrating in front of her, and he says, Please, please, can you bring my son back to, like, if you do, I'll give you half of all my gold. If you say yes, I'll order all my men to bring all your ritual tools to my house right now.

[00:47:39] And she's like, my mans, I'm doing it. She's like, for you? Bolto? I got you. She's like, I'm gonna go to the underworld and get me your sun soul. Okay. You guys, it's about to get real hairy. Strappin Bolto's men, they come, they bring all her instruments, and they go to the house. Now [00:48:00] once in the house, she arranges everything the way that she tells them to.

[00:48:04] She says, I need you to put this here. She's telling them what to do in the room because she needs space to work. Okay, so there are wood carvings that she has in sacred place. And Buldo, he prostrated himself in front of these wood carvings, she asked him to do. He invited her to lunch. Which was nice of him, right?

[00:48:24] He's like, he said my shaman's gotta eat before she gets down, before she travels. And he summons the other three shamans in the town, the ones that he said were fakes, just in case she needs some help. So he summons them. But then, when the Nishan shaman starts their ritual, the other three fake shamans, they couldn't keep up.

[00:48:45] They were like, oh my god, she's too good. So they got really nervous. And... Then she stopped the whole ritual and she looks at a bulldoze. She's like, I won't be able to go to the, to the underworld if they don't keep up [00:49:00] with my rhythm, because I need a specific rhythm. And she said, you got to go get my assistant Nari from my village, because he'll follow my rhythm.

[00:49:08] He knows what I do. So Boldo was like, no problem. He sent his people. He said, go get Nari. So Nisha shaman, she waits, she puts on her dress, her cap, nari gets there. She's getting ready. Once she starts drumming and Nari's keeping up with the drum, she's ready. Okay? Now, in a few minutes, the spirit enters her body and her face changes and soon after she could be heard hissing and appeared to speak through her teeth.

[00:49:35] The spirits then demanded that the 15 year old dog and the three year old rooster be tied to her and Boldo did whatever. He's like, okay, cool. I got some string. I'm tying them to you. Then, when she was in the trance, like deep, deep in it, Nari took the drum from her and placed the Nishan Shaman on the crown and he laid her down to accompany her with the drum during her trip to the other world.

[00:49:58] So now, she rose [00:50:00] into the air, her spirit surrounded by the other helpers, the Angan spirits, and flew away from her body. Without looking backwards and . So when she got to where she needed to get, she got to a river. There she saw an old man in a boat and the old man took her to the other side of the river.

[00:50:18] Nishan Shan was like, Oh, by the way, quick, quick question. Was there somebody who came here yesterday, who crossed the river? And the old guy was like I don't know. Only one that came this way was Mangalati Nath, said the ferryman, who then carried. This guy named Haridi or something, they carried his soul, they carried him, and they delivered him to, Erlik Khan himself.

[00:50:42] You know who Erlik Khan is, we all do. And she's like, hmm, interesting, okay, okay. So then, quick note, the Mangalati knots are guardians of the gates of the underworld, and they're servants of Erlik Khan. So that's, they're the ones who delivered. You remember what happened before. [00:51:00] I don't have to remind you.

[00:51:00] Okay, so she, like, a short time later, she reached another river. There's a lot of rivers she's got to go across. So on the opposite bank is the door to the underworld, but there was no boatman there, so the Nishan shaman, she had to stand there stand on her drum, and with the help of the spirits, then she was able to get to the other side of the river.

[00:51:22] So when she got to the door, she got the door open, she went to Erlang Khan's house. And she encountered koot spirits. Koot spirits, they're evil spirits, but they're very easy to deceive. Alright, this is one of our next... She has a lot of issues going on here. It's really stressful for the Nishan Shaman.

[00:51:40] She... Then, they tried to block her, but she was able to offer them some food from Hariri's funeral feast. Smart girl. She said, let me bring a snack for the trip. When she got there... She's like, are you boys hungry? Let me give you something. So she gave them some food and they were like, Oh, thanks. Okay. And they moved out of the way.

[00:51:59] [00:52:00] That was easy. So then she got to the home of the Mangalati Knot. And in this story in particular, it says, Any other shaman would have been anguished to face the guardians of the underworld. But this was not the case for the Nishan Shaman. She was like, I'm not afraid. So she took hold of her drum and she sang a shamanic song until the mangalodhi came out.

[00:52:22] And they were like, who's singing that song? And they were like, what are you doing here yelling that awful stupid song? And she's like, okay. And they're like, oh, it's the Nishan Shaman. What are you doing here? And they knew her. She's famous. So they were like, why are you here? And she's like, I'm here to get my friend Hariti. ? And she, Oh no, she asked them, why did you take him? And they were like, because Erlong Tom told us to. And she was like, come on now. He's a young Boy with a bright future.

[00:52:54] Why would you take him and they're like because he wanted to test him He wanted to see how well [00:53:00] he was doing with the bow and he passed an arrow through the hole of a coin Which put which they put on a high pole and he fought with wrestling champions and defeated them So Erlong Khan thought he was so good and he wanted to adopt him.

[00:53:14] Okay Everybody know just because you think a kid is good at sports. You shouldn't kidnap them and drag them to the underworld. That's not cool. Also the, so these guys, right, the spirits, they're like, oh, you won't be able to take him back, by the way, just so you know, don't even know what you got here.

[00:53:30] And she's like, okay, fine. That's what you think. She's like, okay, I guess it's not you guys's fault, though. Maybe you're not such a bad person. But I'm still going to take Hariti back with me. So the shaman, she starts walking until she gets to Erleg Khan's house, which is said to be an impenetrable fortress.

[00:53:53] But she looked for a clearing of trees in a nearby forest, and she sat on the ground, she picked up her drum. Thank God she brought her drum, right? And [00:54:00] she began to sing one of her songs again, and she invoked all the land all the animals and the birds to come to her aid. Suddenly, the sun's rays disappeared and the forest clearing and the sky forest cleared and the sky darkened and it was Garuda, a giant bird, king of the birds.

[00:54:17] He landed in the clearing and Nishan Shaman's like, Oh my gosh, thank you. And so she got on his back, and he flew over the walls and into Erlakhan's fortress, and from above, she saw Haridi's I'm calling her Reedy, guys, but I'm going to write the name out because I know I'm not saying it right. I apologize.

[00:54:37] But this is what we're going with right now. I apologize. You saw her playing in the yard with the other boys. With gold and silver shah guy. Shah guy? I'm not sure what that is. Okay, you know what that is, David. Thank you. I'm sorry. Ankle bones

[00:54:51] David: like dice. They play like dice.

[00:54:52] Ashley: Okay.

[00:54:53] Shah guy. Okay. So he was playing with the other boys. She was on the, she was on the bird. And then, she saw the boys playing with [00:55:00] the, with the shot guy. And then Haridi fell, and the bird picked him up with his claws, and he's screaming, right?

[00:55:09] And then, all of a sudden, Erlik Khan, he hears it, so he comes out. And he's like, what's going on? And he summons all the all those little other spirits that were supposed to, that brought him Haridi. And he's like, you better not have to do anything with this. And all the boys are like, no, we didn't do anything wrong.

[00:55:27] It's that Nishan shaman. And then he's like, what? And he's like, go after her. So just imagine all these, like, these spirits are like running after her. Garuda, had already taken Haridi back to that clearing where he picked up the Nishan Shaman. So they're together now.

[00:55:44] So the Nishan Shaman was like, sorry, Haridi, you've got to turn into a pebble. She put it in one of her ears, which I thought was pretty interesting. She thanked Garuda. She's like, Thank you so much for flying me over the wall. I gotta go.

[00:55:56] And she set off onto the road. But the Mangalodhi Nuts, they caught up with [00:56:00] her. And they were like, Oh Nissan Shaman, we just want to talk to you really quick. Maybe you're a really good person, but you can't just take Hariri back. And he's like, things aren't right. You know it. And he's like, It's not good to catch, she, can you believe that they told her it's not good to kidnap people?

[00:56:20] They kidnap somebody. They're like, you shouldn't kidnap people using your powers and you can't take something so valuable without leaving something in return. You have to pay a price. Don't you think that's fair? And she's like, okay, fair, fair. I can give you the entire funeral fees and you can take it yourself and enjoy it.

[00:56:40] And they were like, Oh, that's not enough. Erlik Khan, he's going to kill us if you don't give us like a really good compensation. So like I told you, if you really want him some lost food, that's not going to be enough. They're like, Hmm. She's like, Would you like a dog and a rooster? And they're like, [00:57:00] Yeah, that's a good, that's a good one.

[00:57:06] She's like, Okay. She's like, fine, I'll give you the dog and the rooster, but you have to promise me something. You have to promise me that you'll extend this boy's life. And the Mongolian god was like, okay, I'll add 20 years to his life. Said it's not enough. He was still a little boy when you took him.

[00:57:24] I'll add 30 years to his life. She said, ugh, that's not enough. He hasn't settled down when you took him away. I'll add 40 years. That's not enough. He hadn't received any honors when you took him away. I'll add 50 years. That's not enough. He wasn't wise yet. I'll add 60 years. That's still not enough. He hasn't shot an arrow like a real man when you took him away.

[00:57:45] I'll add 70 years. He was like, that's not enough. He hadn't learned the art of craftsmanship when you took him away. I'll add 80 years. That's not enough. He hadn't understood the affairs of age when you took him away. Okay. [00:58:00] And the, and Mongolini now is like, all right, I'm going to add 90 years and that's it.

[00:58:04] I can't do any more. He won't suffer from any diseases until he's 60 and he'll have 9 kids. Is that good enough? Oh, and also added, he'll be able to piss standing up and shit squatting down his whole life. And I quote from this particular story I read. Nishan Shaman was like, done, done, sounds good to me.

[00:58:25] She gives him the rooster and the dog and says, You can call the rooster saying, Ashi, Ashi, and the dog saying, Chiyo, Chiyo. And she left in a hurry, and she didn't say goodbye, so she ran away. So the mongolianauts went back to test what the shaman had said, and they were like, Ashi, ashi, kio, kio. But the rooster and the dog ran after the shamaness, and he ran after them, barely keeping up.

[00:58:49] And then the mongolianaut, which is just one person now, was like, elder sister why are you making fun of me? Why did you, why did you make them chase you? Why are you doing that? And when I [00:59:00] called the animal's name, they ran away from me. And guess what? My lord, Erlang Khan, is not going to be happy if you gave me these, like, not great roosters and dogs.

[00:59:09] And she's like, ha ha ha ha. And he's like, yeah, I was just playing, sorry. And she's like, actually, she's like, you're going to say goo goo and eri eri. So the mongoloidian rat was like, okay. And he put those words to the test. And this time the animals came to him. So he turned around and he went back to Erlang Khan's house.

[00:59:25] The dog was wagging its tail. And it was no problem. Everybody was happy. So now, back to our shaman girl. She was like, still returning on her journey, and then all of a sudden, oh no! You guys, she ran into her dead husband. Can you even believe it? I was like, who? Oh my god. She ran into her dead husband who was just hanging out on the side of the road with a cauldron full of oil with fire made from saugrum stalks.

[00:59:52] He looked furious. He looked really upset. And he was like, Hey, ex wife, I've been waiting for you. [01:00:00] I'm sorry. I think this is so funny. He started in the middle of the road and he's like, so you can come down here. You guys just imagine this. He's like, so you can come down here and get other people's children, but you can't come get your own husband.

[01:00:15] Wow. Wow!

[01:00:21] I see how you are. We talk about spirits being petty. He's so mad right now. He's like, wow, that's crazy. So It's like this crazy and he's been like either you're gonna return me to the world of the living or I'm gonna throw you in this pot of oil and she's like, whoa Calm down. Calm down. Calm down your husband.

[01:00:43] Listen Listen to me carefully, she said. Open your ears and don't miss a single word. I can't bring you back to life now because your body is gross, okay? It's all rotted away and nasty. Plus, I've been taking care of your mom, so chill out. Everything's fine up [01:01:00] there. How exactly am I supposed to resurrect you?

[01:01:03] And she said I can't take care of you and your mom even if you did come back. I mean, I don't have a body for you, right? So the husband is now getting pissed off and he's like, Listen to me. All right. When I was with you, you weren't even nice to me. Okay. You were super mean. So obviously he's got some emotions that he's been trying to get out for years, but he's been dead.

[01:01:21] So you can tell her he's like, you weren't nice. I tried to make you happy. And now you're taking care of my mom. Good for you. You should be taking care of my mom. And he's like, you better get in this oil or I'm going to throw you in it. And then our girl, she, now she's mad. She was trying to be cool, but now she's pissed.

[01:01:38] She said, listen to me. What did you leave me when you left? I'm waiting. I'm waiting. Nothing. She's like, I was 12 years old, and according to the customs of her people, I could have made my own life and forgotten about your mom. But no, I felt bad for your mom, and I stayed with her, and I took care of her like she was my own daughter.

[01:01:57] They're having a whole marital argument. Meanwhile, Hariti's a [01:02:00] pebble in her ear. Like, they've got to get out of here, but they're having a whole argument. And she says to him, I see death has taught you nothing. I was like, damn. I was like, why? So she's like, you better go to that place where everyone else is like you.

[01:02:16] And raising... You guys, this is serious. So raising her arms to the heavens the Nishan Shaman, she invokes spirits. She said, great crane that flies over the spirits, snatch my husband with your claws and throw him into Ella Guren so that he will not incarnate again in this world. But in another, where everyone is as mean as he is.

[01:02:36] Wow! She was so bad! A shadow then fell over all of them, and suddenly two claws snatched the husband away and soared into the sky. The Nishan Shaman continued on her way, and she felt bad about it later, but she also was like, You're really messing up my life right now, so I can't deal with that. And she whispered to herself, I can be happy without this guy.

[01:02:59] I'm gonna do what I can [01:03:00] for his mom. I'm just gonna, like live my best life. I'm gonna try my best. And she literally says, Without a husband, I shall live happily. Without a man, I can be blissful. Among mother's relatives, I have a good life. Years will pass, and I shall live cheerfully. I can live happily without children.

[01:03:16] I can have love without taking care of a family. Enjoy my youth. I live without worries. So she got that. Quickly, she kept walking, then all of a sudden, one more thing, she hit a big tower surrounded by really beautiful, colorful clouds, and at the gate, there was like a golden gate and there were these guards, and they were like, what's going on?

[01:03:38] And the guards were like, oh, this is the house of Amani, the goddess who makes the leaves of the trees unfold and their roots spread underground. And the other guard was like, yeah, she's the mother goddess that breathes life into souls and the beings of birth. The Nishan Shaman's like, Oh my God, that's awesome.

[01:03:56] How can I pay my respects? And the guard's like, Oh, come [01:04:00] in. Let me show you. Oh, she goes towards the tower. It's surrounded by all this beautiful colored haze. And he sees these two beautiful women and they're like Umami's chambermaid.

[01:04:11] Now she's also talking to one of the maids and then the maid says to her, are you the Nishan Shaman? And she's like, yeah. But I don't know who you are. She's like, Oh, I'm the wife of Nari, your assistant.

[01:04:22] I died of smallpox two years ago. We were neighbors. And she's like, Oh, I forgot. Sorry, girl. How are you? She's like, well, I'm dead. But then she was like, girl, it's okay. Like, as they usher Nishan into this other chamber. And she sees this woman with a lot of white, beautiful hair. And there was thousands of assistants caring for all these little babies.

[01:04:42] Oh my God, they were the souls of all the babies that hadn't been born yet. Yay. So Nishan, she then talked to Umami, knelt at her feet. prostrated in front of her nine times. And Imani at first was like, who dares come to this dangerous place? Why would you do this? And [01:05:00] she's like, in the world of the living, my name is the Nishan Shaman and I'm going back there but I first had to talk to you and give you, my appreciation.

[01:05:09] So Imani was like super just like happy to see her. She's like, I've never forgotten about you. I remember when you had to be born. I didn't want, you didn't want to leave me. Thank you. So I made you a shaman so that you could come back any time you needed to talk to me. And she was like, oh my gosh, thank you.

[01:05:26] So then, because Umami liked her so much, she was like, you know what, let me get you a fast track pass out of here. She's like, one of my maids is going to take you for a ride to get you out. So one of her maids takes her on a ride and showed her the great willow of the world, which unites all the three worlds.

[01:05:43] And it was full of leaves in five colors. And then she took her to another place where there was birds and fish and all these beautiful creatures. And they were showing her, like, oh, this is where we give life to all the beings. And she's like, oh my god, this is so cool. And then they also, the woman took her to a visit[01:06:00] Ella Goran from above.

[01:06:01] She didn't have to go in there, but that's where all the wicked people went. And she didn't like what she saw there, and she felt bad that she sent her husband there. But she also knew that her husband wasn't going to let up then they took her to a court like place where which was their heirloom con, had determined the fate of souls based on their past actions of their land of living.

[01:06:21] So being shown all these things, then she went back to Umami, and now she's like, okay, Umami's like, now you know how things are, and now you can go home. So she goes back to the Dolbor river, which once again, she got on her drum and flew across and then all of a sudden. She starts to come out. So Nari, he's still beating on the drum, and he noticed that she came back, and he's like, oh, thank God.

[01:06:43] Still in a trance, and Nishan Shaman, she tells him what happened. And she says, listen everybody, Bolo, especially you, listen to what I had to say. Gerudo snatched your son from the fortress of Erlog Khan, who had taken him as his adopted son. Gerudo brought [01:07:00] Hariri to me, and I hid him like a tiny pebble in my ear.

[01:07:02] Now I return to his body. I made a deal with the Mongol Dai Nats, according to which your son will have 90 years added to his life and will have nine children. In exchange, the Mongol Nani have taken the dog and the rooster, so sorry about that. But you got your son back and he's like, no problem. So tells her about Umani and how he went to her tower and he prayed, she prayed for the son and all that good stuff.

[01:07:31] She just tells him all the whole story. But she didn't tell them about her husband because she was like that was a touchy part of my story. I don't want to deal with that. But when everything got quiet Nari passed a juniper scrig over to her and she finally like really, really woke up.

[01:07:45] Now she took the fan and she went over to Hariti's body and fanned his soul back into his body. And he woke up and he's like, what? What's going on? He had no idea what's going on. He's like, I've been asleep [01:08:00] this whole time. I think I had a lot of dreams. And they were like, okay, you weren't dreaming you were dead, but like, it's okay.

[01:08:07] We brought you back. So everything's fine now. He's like, Oh, thank God I was dead. That's crazy. Both it was like, Whoa, this is crazy. I'm so happy to see my son and Nishan Shaman. You're the best ever. And he gave her his cloak. And gave her a whole bunch of crystal goblets and wine and then everybody drank together and got drunk.

[01:08:28] the end And

[01:08:33] David: that's it i'm impressed You gave us the long version of the story. Actually, you gave us the long version of

[01:08:43] the Daur Mongol version.

[01:08:49] Ashley: I was reading the story and I'm like, I can't, like, first of all, I'm so sorry about pronunciations, everybody. You know I'm not good at it. I apologize. But also, I'm like... I can't not tell this whole story. Because [01:09:00] the story is wild.

[01:09:03] David: I mean, I have the story in my book, but I simplified it intensely.

[01:09:08] And you gave us the long version.

[01:09:13] Ashley: I just like, I read this story for the first time and I was like, This is one of my favorite stories now. Because, and it's so funny because I read like half of your book, right? And I read like, The first couple of chapters and then I read the story. I was like, damn, this is exactly what David said. I was like, this he said.

[01:09:33] He said shamanism and going on these trips are dangerous. And I was like, damn, this is the Perfect story to explain it. This is like the most She literally met her husband and he was gonna throw her in an oil pot because he was so mad.

[01:09:49] David: Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, the version that I heard it actually implied that he was actually an abusive husband when he was alive.

[01:09:57] Ashley: Yeah, she didn't seem like she liked him very [01:10:00] much and I was like, well, something happened. It's okay. But she was still taking care of his mom, which was nice. So we love her. So everybody that brings us to the end of the podcast. David, thank you so much for being here and sharing all your knowledge.

[01:10:13] And if you want to tell everybody, just tell everybody a quick synopsis. Well, you talked about your book already, but you tell everybody what your book is called and where they can find it. Yeah, sure.

[01:10:25] David: So the book is called spirit voices. The mysteries and magic of North Asian shamanism. And you can find it pretty, it's on Amazon, but if you have a local bookstore that sells books on, in spirituality, definitely ask them to ask them to carry it and, and buy it from there if you can.

[01:10:45] It's, I would say, support your local bookstores, but I would also say my book is, is doing well online, but it's not in a lot of physical bookstores, so help me out there. Yeah, so it's. Yeah, it's and [01:11:00] I definitely want to also specify that I've talked to a lot of people and they read the book and they say, Oh, it's interesting.

[01:11:07] I there, I guess it's interesting just for like comparison purposes. And one thing I want to say is I wrote the book in a specific way so that it can be more than just for comparison purposes. The information that I include, it's meant to help enhance the book. It's anyone and everyone's practice, because, I mean, on one hand it is a different perspective from what a lot of people are used to, but on the other hand, because these practices come from.

[01:11:38] From thousands of years of unbroken lineages, because a lot of these lineages do exist, there's a lot of information, tips, techniques, that are, very practical that everyone should be aware of and everyone should have. A conception of like, for example, not enough people that [01:12:00] I found in the U.

[01:12:00] S. work, I mean, not, like, not even just not enough work with ancestors, but not enough work with the local land spirits, and that's actually a pretty crucial component to any type of spirituality, whether shamanic or not so what I really want to emphasize with this book is that it is meant to, I, I wrote it so that anyone who reads it can benefit from it in their own spiritual practice.

[01:12:26] And and yeah, so it's so it's, I do recommend that people don't just look at it as, Oh, this is a tradition of people from another part of the world. It's, it is, I wrote it so that it can be useful. So like, like if someone's going to buy my book, I want it to be useful to them.

[01:12:44] Ashley: Yeah. Absolutely. And I honestly, I've really enjoyed reading it so far and I do see it as very useful.

[01:12:51] I really like it. I think it's a really good also way for people who know what shamanism is [01:13:00] for their own definition to actually like read where it starts and like the, the beginning of where even the word comes from. And hear about these practices. It could, yeah, like you said, it can only make your own practices better.

[01:13:12] And that's my whole point, even of this podcast, is like, to help people know about other people's cultures, and

[01:13:17] David: then, do I have time to provide one word of advice that may, that may piss some people off?

[01:13:24] Ashley: Let's do it, I love it.

[01:13:26] David: So the thing is, a lot of people in the U. S. and Europe, they do practice something called Khorashamnism, and Traditional shamans have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but there's one thing that traditional shamans, and even myself, have noticed that we want to give us advice, if not a warning basically it's, core shamanism does not have a lot of cosmology or a lot of, like, guidelines, it's pretty much a you figure it out yourself way, but the thing is, it's very hard, like, when [01:14:00] spirits get Like, if they start becoming, like, deceiving, it's very, very hard to notice.

[01:14:06] And what a lot of people who engage in core shamanism is, is sometimes a lot of people, from what we've noticed, have difficulty parsing out the actual helpful spirits from the spirits that are, just, they're messing with you. Because they're all going to appear as helpful spirits, and they're not, and they're not Gods, they're just random spirits. Funny story, real quick. It's actually, when, when some core shaman practitioners went to visit my friend in Mongolia, she performed a, like a basic, like a basic shamanic cleansing on all of them, and all the spirits they thought they worked with disappeared.

[01:14:43] Wow. Just to prove a point. Wow. One thing I want to emphasize is, for people who do engage in core shamanism, I want to advise you to either, if you can, follow the follow a [01:15:00] tradition's, practices, guidelines, taboos of a, of a traditional lineage if you're able to. If you're unable to, then don't have that Korushamism be your only practice.

[01:15:12] with some kind of higher power that is known and trustworthy to To be able to not only protect you, but also purify, heal you, they'll be the, if a weird spirit comes around pretending to be a good spirit, they'll be able to help deal with it. This is why I actually say, in my experience in the U. S., I find that witches are actually more spiritually healthy than people who only do core shamanism.

[01:15:36] Because witches actually engage with, like, they engage with gods that are known to have higher powers. And so it actually helps shield them. From a lot of things. For people who only do core shamanism but don't work with like, like gods of any pantheon or mythology or higher powers of that sense, they are basically Like like flagging themselves for [01:16:00] risk.

[01:16:00] And this is why, like, even in Mongolia right now, traditional shamans, when they talk to anyone and everyone, they advise them to check out Buddhism. Even though there's weird history between the two, they actually do advise people to check out, Buddhism and those higher powers because they can actually help, shield and protect and, help.

[01:16:21] Like, people's spiritual health if a weird spirit comes around. And so, and so that's the advice that, the specific advice that I give, and I, the advice I give is basically work, either work with a traditional lineage, even if they don't initiate you, like, follow their guidelines, their rules, their taboos, or, at the very least, work with some kind of higher power that can, you know, that, that can be able to help you discern.

[01:16:48] Ashley: Yes. Oh my God. Like, first of all that is so important. And I don't think people realize even like, in my own like practice of what I do, I, [01:17:00] I can't do anything without, I have like a primary deity that I work with and I have a couple other ones for different things, but like, I cannot do anything without her.

[01:17:10] Because I am scared. She's way smarter than me. If anything comes along and I have a, I have an ancestral deity from my own tradition that I work with very closely and he is on me all the time and he's like, mm mm, that one, nope, that one, okay. Yeah.

[01:17:31] David: Before the entrance of Buddhism into North Asia, we only relied on our ancestral shamanic spirits to help us with this.

[01:17:38] Now, with things like core shamanism popping up, people who are not chosen to become shamans are dealing with, shamanic ish type of things, and if you don't have that ancestral shamanic spirit, you need something else to, to be able to help. It's actually my, my friends in Mongolia, they're actually frustrated with how many Westerners who call themselves like core shamans who who have [01:18:00] some weird attachments on them It's actually to the point where they're getting frustrated

[01:18:05] Ashley: Wow Oh, no, everybody.

[01:18:08] You need big spirits. That's the lesson You need big big doing any type of work Especially if your work is gonna end up trying to help other people you need Protection you can't just be Willy nillying throwing stuff and like, Oh, whatever. I'm just talking to whoever you don't know who you're talking to.

[01:18:29] Remember, they're way there. They're beyond us. Like all this. They're beyond us. So like, you don't know what's going on up there. They know and they can do whatever they want with us. Silly humans. And they do. So he David's warning there. I love it. Thank you for sharing that. Well, that comes to the end of this show.

[01:18:54] David, thank you so much for listening to the long version. I appreciate your patience with my bad pronunciations. [01:19:00] Thank you. And I apologize to all of your Mongolian friends and all your other Central Asian friends for all my bad pronunciations. I apologize. So everybody, thank you guys too for listening.

[01:19:11] David: But if people want to follow me, they can find me on Instagram.

[01:19:14] Ashley: Everybody follow David. All his links are going to be in the they'll all be in the show notes

[01:19:18] This is Dine with the Divine. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. And if you really enjoy this show, please give us a rating or a review. On Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen. And if you have any suggestions, comments, questions, feel free to email me at Dime with the divine@gmail.com.

[01:19:35] And if you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm Stan Kofa hs. That's S A N K O F A H S, and Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. Thank you everybody for being here, and I'll see you all next week. Thank you, David again.

[01:19:48] Yeah. Yay. Okay, everybody. See you next week. Thank you. Bye. [01:20:00]