Quit Normalizing Billionaires and Tarot For the Hard Work with Maria Minnis

Maria

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[00:00:00] Ashley: Hi everybody and welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm your host Ashley and together we'll be exploring the magical, the mystical, and everything in between. On today's episode we're gonna talk a lot about activism and then we're gonna talk a lot about a guy who... Had lots of cool magic in his pockets.

[00:00:23] Okay, so I hope everyone's having a great day And if not, I hope your day gets better soon. So today we have a fantastic guest We have maria menace and maria is a black jewish queer and autistic tarot reader Of 20 plus years who teaches people about blending their mad their spirituality with magic Liberation work and eroticism in their everyday lives.

[00:00:46] She believes that the end result of all magic should be to cultivate a more equitable and empathetic planet. Maria, how are you?

[00:00:55] Maria: I'm doing so well. I'm a little bit tired, but [00:01:00] overall I am feeling blessed and peaceful and at ease and So damn happy to be here with you today.

[00:01:09] Ashley: Wonderful. I am additionally a little tired.

[00:01:12] So we're gonna have a very nice calm conversation. Yes. Great. Yes, because I feel you. I get it. So the first question I wanted to ask, because I ask everybody the same, How did you get to this point in your spirituality? How did you Start with all of that.

[00:01:32] Maria: Yeah, I was just talking to somebody earlier someone asked like when did you become a witch?

[00:01:38] and I was like, oh And I just thought back to it and I was like I think I've always been a witch. I think I have always been using intentions and connections with nature. I've always been in, in tune with my intuition. I was a weird freaking kid.

[00:01:58] Ashley: Yes, yes. [00:02:00] You get it. You get it.

[00:02:01] And

[00:02:02] Maria: so I just feel like I've always been a very intentional, intuitive person. And I think there are plenty of definitions of whatever constitutes which or what my spirituality looks like. But I have come to this point through a lot of exploration and learning. I definitely have had different phases where, you know, different belief systems matched who I was at the time and what I needed at the time.

[00:02:36] And even though I may not... necessarily believe those things anymore. I have walked away from every spiritual experience with something that has made me a better and more ethically aligned person. And that's honestly the goal of my spirituality is to just increase equity [00:03:00] and empathy across the planet.

[00:03:02] And if I can do that in any small sort of way, then, hell yeah, I'll call myself a witch if that's what being a witch is, making change. I guess that's what I am.

[00:03:13] Ashley: Awesome, that's so cool. I wanted to ask you specifically about your work with, so, okay, first you talk about, now, This is me not knowing things well, so I'll ask you if it's okay to explain something.

[00:03:29] So when you say liberation work, what exactly do you mean by that phrase? Just because it's not a phrase that I'm like familiar with. So, yeah.

[00:03:38] Maria: Yeah. Thank you for asking. It's actually a term I use a lot and, Mm-Hmm. . Now I'm just realizing maybe it would be helpful for me to explicitly explain what I mean by that.

[00:03:49] Mm-Hmm. . I think liberation work has has multiple layers. We are liberating. I want to help people [00:04:00] liberate themselves from internal stuck narratives internal biases. Lead them to places where they can heal and work on their trauma. I'm not a medical professional, I can help give people the confidence and the direction to take care of themselves the best they can.

[00:04:22] I definitely think liberation work. Also has the level of interpersonal relationships somewhere involved in it. Like how do we interact with the people we see every day and how can we make those interactions more spacious and less prescribed and in service of a more ideal future? Not necessarily saying that like every conversation has to be about, ending police brutality, but how can your presence make a difference?

[00:04:55] in whatever space you are in. Mm hmm. And [00:05:00] beyond that, I think there's this collective liberation, which I think is what a lot of people associate with liberation work, like ending structural racism and this and that. But I say liberation work because it's work and I mean that in the everyday sense. I, my magic is all about...

[00:05:21] Bringing your intention into your every day. It's not, something that happens at the full moon and the new moon. It's happening every single day. My my friend, Angela Mary Magic says, everything's a spell. And I believe that so wholeheartedly. And so I think if we can focus on yes, we want to approach these big collective issues.

[00:05:48] But it's going to take a lot of micro interactions, a lot of healing within ourselves, and collect, or group healing with other people. It's gonna take a lot of everyday efforts [00:06:00] to create large scale change. And so when I say liberation work, the everyday little decisions that you make, even just where you choose to shop.

[00:06:10] Those things that are feeding into a more liberated planet where people can Have more opportunities to choose to

[00:06:20] Ashley: thrive. Okay. I love that. Thank you. That was a wonderful explanation. I totally understand. And I really love how you were talking about even, even in the smallest sense. First of all, I love that what your friend says.

[00:06:36] That's, that makes a lot of sense. Like every little thing can be a spell or be magic. Because even, and even beyond. Even beyond activism or, like you said, challenging, getting into these big issues, the small interactions you have with people every day can change people. I can think of interactions I've had with people that changed my [00:07:00] mind about something, that made me think differently about something, and then, in turn, help me become a better person.

[00:07:07] So, yeah, that's so important. It doesn't take a lot sometimes for all of us. It's a chain reaction, right? You, you explaining liberation work to me. Now I'll be able to explain it to somebody else so that they'll be like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. They can explain it. It's a big thing, which is so helpful to everybody.

[00:07:28] And I, there was something else you said. Oh, you said so many good things. Sorry, it flew out of my mind. It happens. I know. But oh, I remember. Okay, and then also, I always, I've been saying this for a while, but I believe that any type of spiritual path that anybody takes, even, even like a humanist path, anything that involves whatever, that is, it's supposed to make you feel good, it's supposed to make you feel free.

[00:07:59] If, if [00:08:00] something that you're practicing, I am,

[00:08:03] Maria: listeners, I am shaking my fist in the air and nodding emphatically

[00:08:08] Ashley: right now. You're so funny. Everything is supposed to make you feel better. If, if somebody practices, and it doesn't matter what you practice, and what I think might be respect, restrictive to some people, they say, no, this makes me feel good.

[00:08:24] Great, I'm happy for you. But it just matters for that individual, whatever you practice should make you feel better, should make you be able to face difficult things, obviously it takes time and whatever process you need that's fine, but it should be able to make you face these things without feeling fear of retribution from your god or goddess or whatever.

[00:08:47] You shouldn't feel nervous, you should be able to approach it with, okay, this is what's happening to me and I'm Coming to my spiritual place for comfort and for love and for acceptance yes, and everything you were saying to [00:09:00] and we're gonna talk about your book in a second, but You doing work and helping people with that Well, like you said, you're not a therapist, but I found in so many cases That

[00:09:11] Maria: people working with tarot, it's such a good

[00:09:13] Ashley: supplement for them, maybe they're already in a place where they are able to see a therapist, or they're taking medication, or whatever the case may be. But then the tarot gives them some control, too. They can write their thoughts about it, they can see, and if somebody's reading for them, they can, relate. And I find it's such a good supplement if somebody's interested in that, too.

[00:09:34] Any type of trauma work, and different things like that. It's just... Seems like it really helps people.

[00:09:39] Maria: Absolutely. I think that what you said about like feeling more free and feeling better. I think those are things that we can really take with us because a lot of the work that we do to unlearn and unravel the things that are fixed inside [00:10:00] of ourselves feels hard.

[00:10:02] A lot of those things feel hard and. It, they might not feel good sometimes, but do you feel like a better person for it? Yeah. That's the question we want to ask. And so, yes, like sometimes, structures for people like me make me feel safe and free to, go outside those bounds as long as I have that structure to fall back upon.

[00:10:27] For some people, it's more amorphous and that's the magic of magic. Like it's, it's not a prescription. It's not a one size fits all thing. And I definitely, I, I just really relate to what you said. And I'm glad you said that it makes, it's supposed to make you feel better, but not, not necessarily like pristine or, happy.

[00:10:51] But yes, and I, I agree with you. I do think that. Tarot is a helpful supplement to a lot of the other [00:11:00] personal work that people do on themselves. Notably around the power of trusting your intuition. There is something to be said about walking into the world, or excuse me, venturing out into the world, and feeling like you know yourself.

[00:11:23] And trust your reactions to things and you feel, I don't want to say in control. Because that sounds so like hierarchical, but you definitely, like Tarot for me, it's, it's helped me build this muscle of intuition, which has taught me to, confront difficult feelings and be like, no, I'm going to sit with these and I'm going to deal with them.

[00:11:53] Because something in my mind is telling me it's time. And no matter what messaging, [00:12:00] social media, or, celebrities, or this whole system has for us. No one can take away your intuition. That is an inherent power that you have. And I try to encourage people to work with that and trust that.

[00:12:14] And that's why my readings are often so collaborative. Because it's it's not just my intuition that matters, it's your intuition that matters, so yeah, , I do agree with you let's, let's aim for our, our magic to help us feel freer. Yeah.

[00:12:30] Ashley: Yes. Yes, yes, that's so good. And I think, and you bring up another point that I feel the more I meet people and people who are, Like you who have really dug deep into these subjects and either they've written books or they do lots of blog posts or whatever the case may be about it.

[00:12:50] I, I'm happy to see less of a lot of spiritual bypassing that I feel like a lot of people get caught up

[00:12:55] Maria: in. And I feel that

[00:12:58] Ashley: I've seen it [00:13:00] where people will start doing something spiritually related, whatever it is. And they'll say well, I don't feel better yet.

[00:13:07] And it's and the thing is, when I went through a big spiritual kind of awakening in myself I felt like shit, to be honest. I was really sad. I was like, I hate, I had to really confront a lot of things that I thought I was fine with, and I found out I was not fine with those things at all.

[00:13:26] And it was a lot of kind of reckoning with a lot of those things. And so. This is why I always tell people too once you get on a path and you're like, I'm going to do this and that, just my, just again, intuition. It's very important. You need to listen to yourself because don't take yourself and be like, I have to be happy because those things that are nagging at you that maybe are already bothering you are just going to bother you more.

[00:13:51] And at some point when the person is ready, you're going to have to deal with that. And it's not a comfortable space. I [00:14:00] feel like there's a lot of messaging out in the world that's Oh no, you do this, and everything's gonna be great after that. And everything's gonna be perfect. First of all, we all know nothing will ever be perfect.

[00:14:09] We're always gonna have struggles and whatnot, and that's fine. Nobody, nothing's meant to be perfect, but Also, just because somebody doesn't feel good immediately does not mean And then I think people don't feel good immediately, and then they feel like they failed. They're like, Oh, my spiritual journey must be over because I'm doing so bad.

[00:14:29] No, no

[00:14:29] Maria: no, no, honey. Like I will speak if you don't mind. I'd love to speak to an example. So last year 2022 was my tower year. And I ended up in a really shitty situation where. I had left my ex partner, my abusive ex partner of nine years. And that was hard. There was a whole big fucking [00:15:00] court case.

[00:15:01] I didn't feel like anyone believed me. I had to get medically examined, multiple times and that was painful. I had to retell my story over and over again. And I was just like, okay. Tower year is here. I feel like shit. I'm crying all the time. I'm not taking very good care of myself. And mind you, I wasn't doing readings at that time.

[00:15:27] I don't think that's responsible. But I continued my daily practice, my like morning practice, and it required a lot of trust that Things, the waters would feel calm again one day and no, I didn't feel better when I was deep in that work, but looking back, I needed to do all of that and intuition helps us, tend to our emotions and not just accept [00:16:00] them as they are, but to inquire about them.

[00:16:02] And I did a lot of inquiry and it ended up being, the second half ended up being the best year ever, but that was a really tough time for me, and, I'm somebody who magic is so integral to all of my life that for me to feel so hopeless and still do, still have the I think journaling every day is a spell I held on to that I, lit candles and such, and I don't.

[00:16:34] I don't know if I felt like I was particularly strong or magical, but I did know that in the past my magic has worked, and I'm gonna trust that it can work again. It might not turn out the way that I want it to, but I'm a participant in how my story plays out. Not the other one, like the world [00:17:00] isn't telling me what my story is.

[00:17:01] I get to tell you what my story is. Yes. And that's what, magic has brought back to me is the right to craft my life in a way that supports me and the world around me in benevolent ways.

[00:17:19] Ashley: Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. Of course. Yeah. Yes. And that, oh, that, that, oh, I feel you on that. There's some times when anybody is going through something really difficult and I know when like for me, it's been times when I've been like in a very deep like Situational depression state and I'm like, okay today I can shower about it

[00:17:50] Maria: If you get to showering, oh,

[00:17:52] Ashley: you're good

[00:17:57] Because my stomach hurts But I showered and I [00:18:00] can sit back down, I'm like, Alright, maybe tomorrow I'll be able to shower and take the garbage out. So it's Right, right, right. Just you, yes. Anybody in a situation where you're like, This is so bad. This is so, so bad. I'm, like, you said you weren't able to do exactly all your practices that maybe you wanted to do for yourself.

[00:18:21] And that, you know what, if you're in that situation, that's just the situation you're in. That's okay. Yeah, it's okay. Like just if you can I know it's hard. I'm speaking to anybody who's doing it I know it's hard. But if you can just reach somewhere in the back of your mind and be like, you know What eventually I'm gonna be able to do a little bit more if you

[00:18:39] Maria: could even keep that belief alive

[00:18:42] Ashley: It'll help a little bit if you can I know it sucks when you're crying.

[00:18:45] You can't think that that's okay. Yeah. Yeah

[00:18:47] Maria: Yeah, I totally understand and can relate and want to bring Back to the point that you said about magic making us feel freer. If you're like [00:19:00] magical practice, one thing that I ran into that I want everyone listening to watch out for. I really gave myself a lot of shit.

[00:19:11] For not keeping track with my morning practice the way that I wanted to. I was like, I have this 10 step plan. I wake up at five 30 in the morning. I do this and that. Yeah. , oh, well at see at 5:30 PM I am asleep. . .

[00:19:31] Ashley: I was that at any point. That's great. .

[00:19:36] Maria: I give myself so much shit. I was like, I. I can't pull a card.

[00:19:42] The card that I pulled a month ago is still resonating with me. I can't, what else do I do? I don't feel like, calling in the energy of the directions and blah blah blah. I gave myself so much shit and I was like, is my magic going to wane because [00:20:00] of this? And eventually, I was just like...

[00:20:04] Something is better than nothing. And so, even if all my morning practices is look up at the clouds and just feel grateful for it all for just a minute. Sometimes that's all the feel your body, you need to make it through the day. And you should be so proud of that,

[00:20:22] Ashley: Yes, yes! I, I have this issue too.

[00:20:26] Well, at least for me, I am very like... And I always see like TikToks about like first daughters, like I'm first daughter and I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm very like, I have to have my shit together because at any moment I have someone's gonna need me so so I'm learning to like also be okay with I just can't do this today.

[00:20:46] And it's a very hard lesson for me to learn because On the one hand, I feel like, and I'm getting better, but I used to be like, I'm a failure because I can't do this today. I just must be a shitty person. But I'm learning [00:21:00] that that's not true. Because number one, I could do it tomorrow. And the people who really do care about me are like, oh, that's okay.

[00:21:07] And I'm like, wait, you guys are not all gonna hate me and not love me anymore. They're like, absolutely not. I don't know where you got that idea. I don't know either. Oh my gosh. I just think everyone's always going to be mad at me or disappointed.

[00:21:21] Maria: Oh friend, we are the same.

[00:21:26] Ashley: I literally would be like, everyone's getting mad, but I'll call whether it's like my sister or my mom or my dad or a friend and they'll be like, oh, okay, that's okay.

[00:21:34] You good? I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. They're like, okay, no problem. We'll talk to you later. Oh, you're not mad? They're like, why would I be mad? Because you're tired.

[00:21:40] Maria: Right, right. What's wrong with you? I feel so guilty when I wake up sometimes and, I've got a plan to talk with my mother and I'm like, I'm so tired.

[00:21:52] Can we just talk in a few hours or something? I don't care. I just want you to get the rest that you need and I'm [00:22:00] like, but I don't want you to feel like I don't value you or respect you. And it's would, would we be, would we react the same way if other people, came to us

[00:22:12] Ashley: with these things?

[00:22:13] No, right? Like if my mom, if my mom calls me and she's I'm really tired. I'm like, Oh, okay. No problem. I'll talk to you later. Get a good rest. But I'm like, I'm panicking. I'm sweating. I think everyone hates me. Come on. The logical part of my brain knows it's wrong,

[00:22:25] Maria: right, right. I was talking earlier to someone else about how much I'm learning from my own and other people's manifestations of their chronic illness.

[00:22:38] And how much space a lot of them have, like. The ones that I've encountered, I'm speaking of them like objects, but I don't, I don't mean to, but just the tactics that I've seen, even things like, Hey, I might not respond to your email and a few weeks, in a couple of weeks, because.[00:23:00]

[00:23:00] I don't need to give you a reason, but I will get to you when I get to you. And that sort of reminds me of going back to feeling crappy about like skipping parts of our like regular practices. Would you rather, just go through the motions? Or, do the thing. Wholeheartedly, if I'm just, writing a gratitude list, this is something that's very recent, I do my gratitude journaling every morning and I got to the point where I was like, I'm just looking around the room and just adding things and is this making me feel freer?

[00:23:36] Is this? No, it feels like an obligation and I don't see how this is contributing to my spirituality and there are other ways I can express and Embody gratitude, but it's like, why are we so rigid with ourselves sometimes,

[00:23:54] Ashley: It's a good question. I wonder sometimes what kind of, what conditioning [00:24:00] was it?

[00:24:00] And I don't know if it's just like Western society. Sometimes I think it's you must get everything done and it must be like this and you cannot deviate from the plan. And I feel like maybe that's part of it because then, it's okay to just Sometimes just not be able to do stuff and, and tell people with kindness and love and most of the people, well, everybody that gives a shit about you will also be okay with it.

[00:24:22] So I don't know what it happened in our brains sometimes where we feel like nobody is where everyone's upset. I don't know. No,

[00:24:31] Maria: I get it. I, I am working through my tendency to overly apologize and say, But at the same time, I'm, working on taking up space. I feel like my internet persona, not persona, but I am very honest about these things.

[00:24:51] And I have found so much support from my community. And people have given me lots of strategies and motivation to be gentler [00:25:00] to myself. But... It's a work in progress. It's not overnight. Like I know tomorrow I am not going to be like, I don't know, there's something going to make me feel guilty.

[00:25:13] And, that's something I'll worry about tomorrow. I'll worry about that then. And what I can do, what is magical for me, my magical solution is to work on it. Best way I know how in the capacity that I have. Yeah.

[00:25:34] Ashley: Hey, I think we all need to do a little work on that. Yeah, it's okay. We all just need to forgive ourselves a little bit and give ourselves a little more grace.

[00:25:43] It'll be, it'll be good for all of us. Oh, gosh, I love that. Oh, we could talk about this all day.

[00:25:49] Maria: I know! I'm just like, let's just talk all day. Can you just be online all day?

[00:25:54] Ashley: Talk with me.[00:26:00]

[00:26:01] So, okay, so we're gonna go to our dish of the week, which this week I was like, what are we gonna do? I don't know. But I thought this was interesting. So this was, these are foods and Again, after this segment, we're going to talk about your book, and then we'll go do some other stuff, but So the, so the name of this article is six comfort foods born out of historical times of discomfort, which I thought was pretty interesting.

[00:26:26] So when people are going through rough things, this is what they tended to make or eat. So one of them is called goetta. So goetta is made from scraps of, Pork and wheat and this was happening in 17th century Pennsylvania where there was a lot of German immigrants coming over. And they would make it and it ends up being called something that a lot of people know, Scrapple.

[00:26:52] I do not like Scrapple, but some people do. I think it looks funny, but that's okay. And some [00:27:00] places they call, they've used they put cornmeal on it, and they call it liver mush, which actually sounds not appetizing at all. Liver mush, oh gosh. Imagine you're going to your friend's house, and they're like, what do you want for dinner?

[00:27:13] And you're like, oh, whatever you're going to cook. Oh, yeah, I was thinking of cooking some liver mush. I'm like I think I might be busy that day, but like the next time you have a dinner

[00:27:23] Maria: party, I'm totally coming. I don't, I don't want a dish that has mush in its

[00:27:27] Ashley: name. Me either. That's how you know times were tough because they had to eat liver mush and they just had to accept it.

[00:27:35] Oh no, sorry guys. Okay, so then we have another one. This one is called Ran Fanote? Ramfanote? Which is looks like a bread pudding. This sounds, this sounds a little bit more appetizing. It has some nuts and some fruits in it also has some star anise and cloves and some sugar. This is [00:28:00] a dish that was made by a lot of Afro Peruvians.

[00:28:04] And this is, they made it from whatever was around during the, during some hard times in Peru. They also said they made it a lot when Peruvian soldiers made it when they were fighting a war against chili. Interesting.

[00:28:19] Maria: Okay. Hmm.

[00:28:20] Ashley: Okay. Alright. Tomato soup cake. Hmm. I don't want that either.

[00:28:26] Oh. Oh lord. And

[00:28:35] I was like, hmm, 1920s. And at first they were just calling it mystery cake. Oh, then we're not eating anything that is a mystery. Oh no! Not a mystery cake! Oh no! Oh no! But it was like a cake that was made with condensed tomato soup. I don't know, that doesn't sound good. And they would put, they were trying to make like a like a [00:29:00]

[00:29:01] Maria: I just looked it up.

[00:29:02] I just looked it up. No

[00:29:05] Ashley: thank you. They were like trying to pretend it was red velvet cake, I think, because they're putting like cream cheese frosting on it. That's rude. Don't do that. Not red velvet! Don't do that to red velvet cake! That's so disrespectful. Oh my god. So then we have This one comes out of Tennessee.

[00:29:26] It's called Doodle Soup. Okay. So Doodle Soup is, it's just basically

[00:29:39] Whatever.

[00:29:45] So it was and cayenne pepper and flour. Okay. That's fine. It's Great Depression soup. Basically. And then there was Hoover soup. Sorry, Hoover Stew. [00:30:00] And President Herbert Hoover, people didn't like him. So, they made like a stew that wasn't very appetizing and called it Hoover Stew.

[00:30:12] Because they didn't like him at all. That's not nice, but it is funny. They're like, this is stupid. So we're going to name it after this president we don't like. Okay. Yeah, so it was just, and again, this is also like a whatever dish. They just put like corn, pieces of hot dogs, and macaroni, and some canned tomatoes in it. And ate that. Okay.

[00:30:32] Maria: Okay.

[00:30:35] Ashley: Okay. Okay. And last but not least, we have crumble in.

[00:30:40] So this is something that was made by some farm families from southern Appalachia. And it was just like cornmeal and milk. Okay, and sometimes some buttermilk and sometimes some honey. And maybe they could put a little black pepper on it. Where's the, we need some protein in here. [00:31:00] I don't see any, but, oh, I guess it was the Great Depression.

[00:31:03] So, protein was few and far between. Okay, so, those are things you could eat when you're in times of discomfort. You probably don't want to eat those things, and that's okay. Especially got the liver mush. Now we know about some historical foods. Yay. Yay. So now I'm going to do my quick plug. So if you're enjoying this show, just keep following it.

[00:31:27] We're dying with the divine. You can get a new episode for free every Thursday, and we're dying with the divine on Instagram, threads, TikTok.

[00:31:39] And if you really enjoy the show, feel free to give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you listen. And if you have any questions or comments, feel free to email me at dinewiththedivinepod at gmail. com. You can also leave me a tip if you want, and there's a link to all of this in the show notes.

[00:31:59] [00:32:00] Thank you. Okay, next. Okay, so now we're going to talk about our tea time subject where we learn something. But first, maria, I wanted to ask you what inspired you to write your book, which is Tarot for the hard work. Absolutely.

[00:32:15] Maria: So, my book coming out January 8th, 2024. For those of you who don't know is a practical anti racism.

[00:32:26] workbook I have done, it, it is something I am very proud of and it's a spell for the world. I, it, it's for confronting racism and personal insight and prompting social change. I wrote over 60 essays and hundreds of activities and also separate exercises for building your own anti racism Toolkit that's customized to you and your community this book Did not start out as [00:33:00] Something that was supposed to be a book.

[00:33:03] I Found that so I grew up in Western, Virginia Yes, it is everything you're thinking it is, You know I won't lie to you there but There was just a lot of at the time of ramping up toward the 2020 election, I just saw more displays of racism whether that was covert or overt we definitely saw, the news gave us a lot to think about, and I felt a overwhelmed.

[00:33:38] I was like, what can I do? What can I do in the middle of nowhere? And all of the the few anti racism groups in my town were all about how white people can become anti racist, and I am grateful for that. However, that was not for me, [00:34:00] and I wanted something to, Not necessarily a guide, but a set of resources in which I could find ways to weave everyday actions, my everyday choices into this larger picture of a more ideal, a more free future.

[00:34:21] And so it, it began just as this notebook of, tarot cards because tarot cards were something I was familiar with. I feel free within structure sometimes. And so I just went from, the fool to the world and honestly. practiced embodying each of those archetypes in my everyday life and found a lot more confidence in my ability to contribute because so many people say, what can I do?

[00:34:53] And their work stops there. And this book is for anyone who just like [00:35:00] What the hell can I do? I live in the middle of nowhere. I live in this big wild town and there's, so many distractions. All sorts of things. It's for, it's, it's for anyone who's asking what can I do who might not have much time much money much energy.

[00:35:19] And maybe you do have all of these things and that's great and this book is for you too. But I didn't know what to do. And so I had this notebook of tarot archetypes and ways that I could embody them in sort of ways of. To be able to live in my truth, wherever I was, and to be an advocate, not just for myself, but for other people and to recognize what privilege I had and what internalized racism I had.

[00:35:49] And so I worked through that, and eventually it became a blog. Which garnered a lot of attention, which was unexpected for me. I was just like, I, I felt [00:36:00] like I needed to get out, get this out in the world. And a reading from one of my tarot readers in the past, made that so apparent. And so I felt the motivation to get myself out there and to share this weird little project that I've been working on.

[00:36:18] And, Now, it's a book and it's, it's a lot of what was what I have communicated before but it's more things that like, I wish I had the space to say and more I just. When you're writing in blog format or you're writing in a journal, there's only so much you can really say before it becomes difficult to digest.

[00:36:49] This book, I think, encompasses so much of what I want to say in a way that is digestible straightforward. [00:37:00] I mentioned in the introduction that I'm like, your guide, but I'm I'm going through this journey too. I don't know everything. I, again, am undoing internalized racism. I am doing the work alongside you.

[00:37:15] But, I have worked with the Tarot to do this work before. Let me show you how. And from there you can ideate your own ways of creating a more liberated future.

[00:37:30] Ashley: Yes! I love that! Yes! I love that! Yes! I was looking through your book. You ask a lot of really good questions. They made me think, too. I was like, hmm, I do, maybe I do think like this about this.

[00:37:44] I was like, I didn't even realize that I thought this way. I do really, I like the questions that you ask, and how you ask them and motivate us to think a little differently. I really, really love that. Okay. So, this actually, we're recording this early, but this is [00:38:00] going to come out right before your book.

[00:38:01] So, I'm going to have links in the show notes, everybody, so you can check the book out. Yeah, and definitely order it because it's very, very good and it's very, very insightful. I really, really enjoy it. So, next we're going to talk about, since we're talking about hard work and we're talking about liberation and we're talking about all this good stuff, we're going to talk a little bit about different ways people can do activism.

[00:38:24] So, I have some big concepts here, but I thought we can talk about little little things. Just like Maria was just discussing about her own book, how she talks about different ways you can do things that you don't have to put out a lot of energy, a lot of money if you don't have it, but you can support and, and do things to help your community and to help you put what you believe out in the world in a positive way without having to spend a lot of stuff.

[00:38:52] I feel like sometimes people will say, a lot of people say I don't have enough money, which I get that especially like when it comes to Amazon, right?[00:39:00] I know, I know I shouldn't order from Amazon because they're bad they're, they're, I always read I watched this video on Instagram the other day, I've, I've heard it before when people are like, oh, you can't be a billionaire.

[00:39:12] Without murdering people and I'm like, that's the silliest thing I've ever heard in my life And then this guy broke it down for me and I was like

[00:39:22] Yeah,

[00:39:22] Maria: no one has to be a billionaire without exploitation or inheritance Yeah, and that goes for the billionaires that we like The public perceives that's good. And that's just an honest truth That, I, I said that, I was like, I posted something on Instagram and I was like, let's stop worshipping billionaires and I like wrote a description around it and people got so mad at me and I'm like, you don't know these people.

[00:39:53] You are closer to being on the street than you are to being a billionaire. We are, most of us [00:40:00] are. So don't, don't be silly. These people are exploiting other people or they've inherited, inherited it. But given the fact that they're still a billionaire, like what are they doing with that money in a world that needs so much?

[00:40:14] And when I was writing in my journal for like this whole anti racist tarot stuff, I felt like money was one of my biggest. I was like, I'm at the food bank every week. I, I barely have enough money to drive to get to work and back. And, all of my paycheck goes to my bills and I might have, 15 left for myself.

[00:40:38] I sure don't have a lot of money to drive to protests or to share in mutual aid. But. There are so many other ways that we can contribute without going out of our ways. And like you said Amazon, for example I just want to note that by nature of living in a structurally [00:41:00] racist capitalist system, we are all, unfortunately we contribute to it in order to survive.

[00:41:07] And that's just... You know something that we have to accept and I think that when we get into the nitty gritty of judging people for you know Finding you know Affordable ways to take care of their kids put clothes on their back and this and that like You judging these people, it's not helping anything.

[00:41:33] Let's look to the people who, keep the system going. Because individual responsibility, it exists, but you're not the police. What are you going to do? You're going to shit on me for doing this thing, and what? Does that make the world a better place? No, you know when we're doing the best with what we've got and that's the best we can

[00:41:58] Ashley: do [00:42:00] Exactly.

[00:42:00] Oh, amen because it's true sometimes, I don't I live near walmart I do you think if I had tons of money i'd be giving more money to those walmart people No, but I don't, I have to shop at Walmart. I need detergent. I can't, I can't sometimes I can't even buy from Target. That's too expensive.

[00:42:18] So

[00:42:20] Maria: sometimes it's just I gotta go to Walmart because it's cheaper. And yeah, I like shopping at Target better, but like every dollar. Like it counts and it adds

[00:42:30] Ashley: up. Mm hmm. Yes. Okay, so this is a, this is not off topic, this is on topic. So this is a story that my friend told me the other day, and I have to tell I don't know the name of the movie, I will find it.

[00:42:43] There is this guy, and I believe he is I forget his name. But I think there's this guy. And he funds this I forget the name. Oh, I think it's, I think it's actually called Operation Underground Railroad, I believe it's called. So, he funds this [00:43:00] situation where he sets up these like sting operations or something in different parts, I believe different parts of the world.

[00:43:08] And it's to get to stop human trafficking. So he's trying to... Save people. Okay, so generally, that is a good thing, right? But the crazy part about it is, he, the way he funds this is, he gets these millionaires and billionaires to basically be able to come so that they can play special ops during this, yeah, it's crazy, during this sting operation, and then help save these people.

[00:43:38] So, he's getting money. from these people, right? Okay. Now, hold right here, okay? I have to go back to two years ago. Two years ago, I read this book, okay? And it's crazy. It's called, I am not your slave. It is a book about a woman from Namibia who is trafficked. She ends up all, [00:44:00] she goes all through, she goes to Sudan, then she's in she goes to Dubai and then she ends up being okay at the end of the book.

[00:44:08] She ends up being all right. She gets back to Namibia and it's just she wrote her story and it's quite amazing. It's insane. But the thing about it is the people who are doing all of that trafficking are billionaires. These people are outrageously rich. Most of them. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, human trafficking is not cheap.

[00:44:27] You don't just buy somebody and it's not a lot of money. It's insane. Right. Right? Yeah, it's insane. So, I'm thinking, when my friend's telling me this story, I was like, billionaires, right? In the world. There's only so many. They all must know each other. It's not me and Maria, we don't know each other because we're in different places in the world.

[00:44:47] Because we're just normal people. Okay, but if I had a billion dollars and Maria had a billion dollars, we'd probably know each other because we're one of like a hundred people in the world who have billions of dollars. Right,

[00:44:59] Maria: running in the [00:45:00] same circles.

[00:45:01] Ashley: Yes, so I was thinking to myself when she's telling me this story, I said, I bet you some of the people traffickers.

[00:45:17] Like, when you really think about it, I'm like, they probably know them. If they really looked and went all through the pipeline of where the money came from. It's coming from these, from oligarchs and billionaires in different countries all over the world. And I just thought, that makes it even sicker and weirder.

[00:45:35] That this is what these people are doing. I'm like, it's like squid games or something. I'm like, what? Yeah, this is gross. I

[00:45:43] Maria: was not aware of this. This, ugh. I just looked it up on IMDB because I was like, what the fuck is this? It has a high rating and all of this, but geez louise, that's what you have to [00:46:00] do to get people to have empathy enough to like, Yes!

[00:46:03] It's nuts! And then,

[00:46:09] Ashley: so it gets even crazier because then, there was Okay, first of all, the main guy who does it, who's doing this operation, is Mormon. So, some, I forget the whole story, but the Mormon church came out against him, and they said, no, no, no, no, no, we don't like this guy. So, if the Mormon church is coming out against somebody that's not good.

[00:46:31] Because they'd be protecting people. But they said we can't protect this guy. So then come to find out that he's being accused of sexually harassing his staff and then somebody on, one of these people that he took on the trip, one of these millionaires, billionaires was also, I think, sexually assaulted one of the people he's trying to save.

[00:46:55] So... It's fucking crazy! And then... What? It just gets [00:47:00] crazier! What? Yes, it's crazy! And then

[00:47:06] my friend was telling me about how there was like this woman, like people, before they knew all this stuff, people were like obsessed with this. They thought it was so amazing, it was so good. And there was a woman, who then was like... I think it was Young Living, one of the MLMs. She was like, I'm gonna get up to diamond status, whatever that is in Young Living.

[00:47:23] MLMs, which is also evil. I, okay, side note, I have an obsession with MLMs. And how crazy and awful they are. Me too,

[00:47:29] Maria: me too, me too. I will watch any documentary about them. Fascinating, just fucking fascinating. It's crazy. They are cults. I believe they are cults.

[00:47:40] Ashley: I do too. Especially when I was the Lulu Lemon one, I was like, this is madness.

[00:47:46] And then I do listen to the Dream Podcast. Ooh, what is this? It's, it's, you'll love it. It's all about MLMs.

[00:47:55] Maria: Oh, well now I am going into this rabbit hole for a [00:48:00] long time. I'm not going to be able to get anything done. This is, this is my kind of shit and I think people don't realize how many things are cults.

[00:48:09] Like they're not murdering anyone, but. It's freaking

[00:48:13] Ashley: mind control. It really is, it's so weird and I feel bad, I know, I saw everybody rant, but I feel bad, I feel bad for people who get into MLMs the same way I feel, I shouldn't say feel bad, I feel empathy for people who get into MLMs the way I feel for people who get into cults.

[00:48:32] Yes. Because you have to be in a certain situation and a certain mindset at that time for people who get into MLMs are normally Heterosexual, cis women who have families and are trying to get money into their families. That's usually, that's the most common population in these MLFs. So, and a lot of the time they feel like they have no other way of doing it.

[00:48:55] They usually have children. And they're thinking, wow, I want to stay home with my [00:49:00] kids and I want to do this and that and help my kids. And that's why in Utah is like the center of MLMs of the world. Because a lot of Mormon women think that they can do it from home.

[00:49:09] But then they suck you in. They never make money. Like 98 percent of these people do not make any money. They spend so much money. They end up in debt. And the whole time they're just trying to support their families. I think it's just so, I think it's so evil that anybody's you know how we're gonna, what we're gonna do?

[00:49:26] We're gonna take money from families. What kind of sick? Right?

[00:49:33] Maria: You are taking food out of children's mouths. Like, how gross.

[00:49:38] Ashley: I know, like you, how do these people sleep? I don't know. But so, oh, back to where I was. I'm so sorry. So, there, there was a woman who was working for Young Living and she made all this money so she could give it to this guy who was working at this Operation Underground Railroad.

[00:49:54] And I'm like, that's crazy. So using MLM, which is evil, to fund this operation, [00:50:00] which is seemingly good, but it's funded by evil people. I was like, this It's too

[00:50:07] Maria: much. It's too much. I'm

[00:50:10] Ashley: so overwhelmed. I'm so confused I can't. It's

[00:50:15] Maria: a tangled web, but the, the, the like underlying issue is is the same as like unequal power distribution.

[00:50:27] Yes. That's the issue at the heart of it all. And, it, it has so many manifestations from MLMs to trafficking, like human trafficking. It's just, it's pervasive. And that's the truth about the world. No matter how love and light we want to be, that we have to acknowledge if we want to change it at all, is that there is uneven power distribution.

[00:50:53] There are a few people. Making a lot off of the backs of many [00:51:00] and we, there seem to be more and more billionaires given I don't know, I, I just think I've heard of this, so more and more people are becoming billionaires, and it's ugh it just makes me so mad, and it's If I had a billion dollars, if I had enough money, I knew I couldn't spend in my whole life, you know what I would do?

[00:51:22] Redistribute it, because then I'm just hoarding. And I don't like hoarding. A billion dollars what am I gonna do with that? I'm saying,

[00:51:30] Ashley: I'm sure you've done this, I do it all the time with my family oh what would you do If you want money, right?

[00:51:36] Like a million dollars and a million dollars when I think about it I was like, oh, you know I pay off all my debts and I pay off probably like my parents debts and I pay off my sister's debts And then I just have the rest and then a million dollars in that way wouldn't go that that far but a billion I don't know after a few million.

[00:51:54] What am I? Doing like right. I know this is why I have my [00:52:00] theory that like this is why Billionaires get weird. They're always into something weird. Something weird and unsavory. Because, what do you do when you can do anything? You do something strange and unsavory. Like, where there's some weird shit going on, and I feel like everybody's not consenting.

[00:52:18] That's why shit gets really dangerous and weird with billionaires. Cause, what else are you gonna do? Assume something

[00:52:23] Maria: crazy. Right, what are you going to do when you can afford anything and it's just like the reality is that, so many of us are chasing things that do not actually satisfy us because when we're satisfied, we don't want more.

[00:52:43] Yeah. We are happy with what we have. If you are. Not, if you say you're satisfied, but you find yourself wanting more of the thing, then you're not actually satisfied. And that speaks to, I think, [00:53:00] The

[00:53:03] Level of just Lack of empathy, because if you feel like you don't have enough And you can't see all around you, what people who don't have enough to literally eat. That's a kind of myopic vision that is very dangerous for this world. And, you're like me, like the other week my partner and I were talking like, What would you do if you won like a couple of, millions of dollars or something?

[00:53:33] And I'm just like you, I would like first pay off all my debt. Two? I would take care of my people, like I want to make sure everyone's good, I'd pay off my family's debt, and I'd remodel their house, or do things that they need, and that's my first thought, and it's just so interesting that your first thought, or your primary thought in, [00:54:00] in having billions or even millions and millions of dollars is, I don't know, he made all those mistakes.

[00:54:07] I'm going to keep it all to myself.

[00:54:10] Ashley: Does

[00:54:12] Maria: sharing not make you feel good? Do you not like to share?

[00:54:19] Ashley: Why do you hate sharing? What did it ever do to you? Are you alright?

[00:54:27] Maria: Yeah what's wrong with you? You don't like making other people happy? You don't like making other people's dreams come true?

[00:54:33] It's not satisfying to you? But another yacht is? Go fuck yourself.

[00:54:44] Ashley: I love that, that was so funny. We were even like, I was talking to my fiance about this Okay, somebody buys a yacht, because we were talking about Cristiano Ronaldo has a very, very large yacht. And we're like, okay, somebody buys a yacht, they're rich. Then you have to dock the yacht, and that costs money.

[00:54:59] Then you [00:55:00] need like a crew for the yacht. I'm just, I feel like also if I was a billionaire, also though, my cheapness would be like, this is just too much money outside of just the yacht. This is just too expensive. I don't care if I have a billion dollars. this

[00:55:18] money? This is really silly.

[00:55:21] Maria: For what? And how often are you really gonna be on that freaking yacht? I know! Come on! You're not gonna, this is not every weekend sort of thing, these people buy these yachts and then they're on them, a few times in the summer and then they just remain docked.

[00:55:35] And it's useless. It's absolutely useless. Yes! And, ugh, it just, it just incenses me and it's like, why would you, why would

[00:55:45] Ashley: you...

[00:55:47] Maria: The things rich people do with their money, man.

[00:55:52] Ashley: It's just crazy. I love how I'm like, we were talking about activism, and then we talked about billionaires and how much we think they're silly.

[00:55:59] Yeah, they're [00:56:00] silly! They're very silly, and this is an important point that we need to make. Yeah,

[00:56:07] Maria: it's bizarre, and the more that we maintain the re like, the more that we Lean into and Acknowledge and accept the fact that the things they do with their money are absolutely bizarre Often inhumane and often selfish quit normalizing billionaires.

[00:56:30] It's not yeah, okay stop like Celebrating that and it's difficult, right? Because there are people who we might like public figures we might like who are billionaires and it's Yeah, you can like their music and you know go to the concert and stuff, but you know remember that this system behind them exists and there's a lot of harm being done by it and That you know as long as you [00:57:00] realize that it's weird and wrong Then you maintain the vision that there is something to be done about it.

[00:57:07] Because once we just normalize it all who cares, it's just yes, we live amongst billionaires while, San Francisco was like, I lived in San Francisco for a little while and I, San Francisco, I think, is like seven miles by seven wiles, miles long

[00:57:24] Ashley: Long? Big? I don't know.

[00:57:26] I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:29] Maria: It's a very compact city. The bay is huge, but the city is small, and so you have these tech millionaires and billionaires walking, along streets with homeless encampments and stuff, and the juxtaposition of the two just really bothered me.

[00:57:47] And if that does not bother you, then What information does that have about you and your relationship to these, despots? I don't know. They're money. Bitch, it [00:58:00] really is! Right. In a capitalist society, money is power, and they're not distributing it. They're making the rules. They're making it hard for us.

[00:58:10] They're not doing... The work that, you know yes, great, you do a donation for this thing. Yes, you ask the poor people to support your donation fund for, Hawaii or something. And it's yes, those things are true, and philanthropy is true, but if you give and you still have a billion dollars left over, or like millions and millions and millions of dollars left over you're an asshole.

[00:58:38] Yeah. ,

[00:58:40] Ashley: you heard it here first. Folks. , granted you have , you're an asshole if you have a laugh. It's good to give, like we're saying. It's good to give. That's fine. I, and I think people get this wrong about like capitalism, so I, there's making money is fine. You are allowed to make [00:59:00] money. Right. But when it's on Yeah, but when it's on like the backs of other people, it's bad.

[00:59:05] That's just a fact. If you're just like a person who, okay, like Maria, if you're just like she's a tarot card reader and she works hard being a tarot card reader, she's written a book, she works hard doing her other work, and she made a lot of money, great, because she's just doing it.

[00:59:19] You know what

[00:59:22] Maria: I mean? I should probably... I can dream of a life of financial abundance. But I get what you're saying.

[00:59:30] Ashley: Yeah that's fine. And when people are like, oh, so and so is a self made millionaire. Okay, but then, even you think about products, how they're made, who's actually making them, what those people are going through, how they're getting paid.

[00:59:43] That's when all the problems start. So it's okay to make money. Nobody's saying you can't have money, but when you have that level of money, there's no way you did it without exploiting other people. That's it. It's just a fact. Nobody can get the billion dollars from, being in their house and they're a virtual [01:00:00] assistant.

[01:00:00] It's just not gonna happen. That's the fact. And that's because Maria said earlier too, because of the way things are set up, you could only get so far without exploiting people. It's just a fact and it sucks. Yeah, you can work your

[01:00:13] Maria: ass off, getting promoted over and over again. You could be at the end of your career and reach, the peak of your, career achievements or all of that, but like you're still not as rich as the person who is you know, signing your paychecks.

[01:00:33] Yeah, there's this sort of mentality that You know, if you work hard, you can be just like the rich people. And that's not, that's not true. Like I think billionaires are some of the least hardworking people on our planet. I would say that. Yes. Yeah. So you're telling me hard work makes you rich.

[01:00:55] Maybe it can, but [01:01:00] More likely, it's gonna be off the labor of other people. And it's going to often be for as cheap as possible. And and without regard to all of the other things that make life worth living. Don't you want the people who are making you rich to live lovely lives where they feel free and taken care of and have enough time to see the sunset

[01:01:28] Ashley: damn.

[01:01:28] I know, right? You, the people who are that rich, you get to do anything you want. And everybody else is just can I have clean water and food to feed myself and the people I care about, and a place to live that is safe, and time to think about, life meaning that's all they want.

[01:01:50] Maria: Who like, totally impedes self actualization so many times, because it's you're just focused on getting through the day, by the time you're done, you're freaking [01:02:00] tired, you, and you do the same thing, you watch TV, you have dinner, repeat, and I, No, I was going to say I think, but I know it's the system is it's designed to tire us.

[01:02:15] So we don't rebel and we don't, fight back. And like I said, no matter how many hours you put in, your job, you're, you're just, even if you become the CEO okay, and what? And what? What does this say about your life? How many people did you help? How many people did you change and transform and love?

[01:02:36] Imagine all of the love you could give and just keeping it in a bank

[01:02:41] Ashley: account. I know. Oh, I love that. Oh, that made me feel good when I'm like, Oh, all the love we can give. I don't have a big bank account, but I can give it.

[01:02:57] Oh, gosh. We're just going to, we talked about millionaires today, [01:03:00] guys. Sorry about the activism part. Well, you can do the, I have articles you can read. Well, we about billionaires. And that's okay. Cause that was a fun conversation. I love talking to you, Maria. This is, this is so fun.

[01:03:11] Okay. So now we're getting into our last, our last section, which is story time. The story is nice and quick, so don't worry, we won't be here for too much longer. It just reminded me of doing speaking of liberation, and speaking of using kind of magic in, in trying to help yourself the Gullo Jack was doing all these things.

[01:03:30] So, Let me tell you the story of Gullar Jack. So Gullar Jack was a conjurer and a rebel. And he was born in Eastern Africa during the final quarter of the 18th century. So he was what they, he think, they think he was a native of Mozambique. He was captured and taken to Zanzibar and then sold to a man with the last name Kingsley.

[01:03:50] I cannot say his first name in 1805. So when he was captured to be put into the slave system, [01:04:00] he was, he possessed a bag of conjuring implements and. He said that he had been a priest where he was from. So they said that Jack Ended up in this plantation in Eastern, Florida and then it was purchased by this other man named from Charleston named Paul Pritchard in 1806 and Jack worked there as a caulker So Jack, because he was a caulker, and because he was really good at his job, a lot of this, his owner, his owners masters, they let him do little things.

[01:04:37] So they let him go out without following him all the time, and they gave him a little bit more room to do a little bit more stuff than some of the other slaves were allowed to do. He was single, he had his own little room. And they quote unquote trusted him, right? Because they were like, oh, he's a, whatever.

[01:04:54] They probably said, he's one of the good ones or whatever the stupid shit. Yeah. So. So. Yeah.[01:05:00]

[01:05:02] So. The worst. So they were like, oh, he's really good at his job. He's really great. He doesn't bother anybody. But unbeknownst to the slave owners and the white. The wealthy, right, people in the town. They didn't know that Jack was out here helping anybody who could. He would go to the different plantations.

[01:05:22] He would help the slaves there if they needed different kinds of magic. He would make conjurer bags for them. He would do whatever they, what he could to help other people. He even had a church that he started, and actually both blacks and whites would go to the church because they said that Jack was really, really good at his job.

[01:05:40] They said he was a magician, he was a doctor, he would help people with whatever they needed healing, divination, and they even said that he had a lot of supernatural control. Also, everybody probably knows this, but just to reiterate the fact that nobody, These African religions or these this magic stuff was illegal.

[01:05:58] He wasn't supposed to be doing [01:06:00] it But he was so helpful that people just let it and they let it slide but in 1817 Jack befriended this guy who was a revolutionary and a self emancipated Carpenter named Denmark Bessie. So Denmark Bessie was like whoa. Okay, so you're super magical and I'm super free And I want to fuck shit up So, Vessie was like, awesome.

[01:06:22] Yeah! I'm down. I know, yeah, so he's sounds good. So, Vessie, yeah, Vessie was like, he was he was ready to just mess up everybody and he told Jack, he's Jack, since you're super powerful and you've got all these conjure bags, do you think you could help me? And Jack was like, no problem, I'mma help, cause I also hate this shit.

[01:06:43] So in June 1818, they were like, let's get together and chat. So they got together, they chatted, and they were like, we're gonna start the largest slave revolt ever, because we don't have time. So, they started to gather all these, all these [01:07:00] other all these other people that they thought they could trust, and they started telling them the plan.

[01:07:04] So, now, it's 1822, and They're like, okay, we're gonna we're gonna put this plan out. So because he was the magician, he was the one to equip everybody with different conjure bags and whatever he thought they needed. So Jack, then he even in the spring of 18 82, he stopped working so much because he wanted to put all his energy into this insurrection.

[01:07:34] He was so excited about it. So then Jack also, somehow, he's so clever, he acquired a powder keg. Wow, okay, I don't know how he got that,

[01:07:48] but that's great. And he got a bunch of weapons. So, even though they planned really, really carefully, unfortunately, one of the people that they were planning with went and told on them. And betrayed them. So now, Monday, June [01:08:00] 17th, 18... I think we're still in 1822. They went and they got, they captured Bessie because they heard about the plan.

[01:08:10] So Jack was able to stay underground for a while and a lot, because he was so popular and a lot of people liked him, they would hide him. But then, Bessie was 2nd. And Jack was still he was really, really scared. So he tried to get out of there. But then July 5th, he was captured and he was put on trial.

[01:08:31] So Jack quickly tried his best to defend himself, but he was a black man in 1822 with no legal representation. So it didn't work well. And people were, like, hoping, oh, maybe he could use his magic. But it just, at that point, was like, he knew that it was the end of what was gonna happen. for him. So, he and Jack on the stand denied having any magical powers and, and he's Oh, I didn't, I didn't help in the conspiracy.

[01:08:59] Obviously he's going to [01:09:00] say that because he doesn't want to die, but unfortunately it was long for Jack. So on July 9th, the authorities sentenced him to death and they said this about Jack. They said, In the prosecution of your wicked designs, you were not satisfied with resorting to natural or ordinary means, but endeavored to enlist on your behalf all the powers of darkness, and employed for that purpose the most disgusting memory and superstition.

[01:09:27] You represented yourself as an invulnerable, you boasted your charms have not protected yourself, your altars and your gods have sunken together in the dust. So that's what the judge said. Jack never gave anybody up. He never said anybody else helped him. He said it was just me and Bessie and Bessie had already died at that point.

[01:09:46] Then they left him in this, what's called a poor house. They left him in the poor house for days. They locked him up. It's hot, there, but, and then in the July 12th, they took him and [01:10:00] they they murdered Jack unfortunately, but. He was always remembered for having resisted, having helped all these other slaves, and they never forgot about him, and That's the story of Gullah Jack.

[01:10:14] He did his best to help and he did actually help a lot of people in his lifetime With healing and whatever else they needed, but tried to do a slave rebellion. It didn't work But we still like Jack because he was doing his best

[01:10:27] Maria: Wow, I was not familiar with that story. I... Yeah, me either.

[01:10:32] Ashley: Wow. Wow,

[01:10:34] Maria: what a hero.

[01:10:35] I know. And, I'm sorry that he, his life ended that way. But wow, what a wonderful example of someone who blended spirituality and activism. I, I love that.

[01:10:48] Ashley: Yeah, me too. I was like, good job, Jack. Yeah, I was like, I love

[01:10:52] it. Oh, gosh. So, that is the end of our story time. And that brings us now to the end of our show. [01:11:00] So, Maria, this has been so, so, so much fun. And I'm just so thankful that you came on and talked. And if you want, if you could tell the people where they can find you online so they can follow you and all your wonderful

[01:11:14] Maria: work.

[01:11:15] Absolutely! So, you can find me at Instagram, on Instagram, at Feminist, so it's F E M I N N I S, which my last name is Minis, so there you go. I share some perspectives. On tarot and social justice. And we look at not just the major arcana, but also the minor arcana as well. You can find my website at mariaminnis.

[01:11:47] com. You can find me I guess by the time this episode airs my podcast, Which Should I Do, will be. Back up and running and ooh, there we'll [01:12:00] talk about kink and the tarot tarot and everyday situations, tarot in the news and also just everyone's favorite section is answering listener questions from other witches.

[01:12:15] Yay! That's coming up. I'm excited to release that our first episode is about our who am I talking about? It's just me

[01:12:26] Ashley: It's monthly and it is it's a lot of fun and I

[01:12:33] Maria: think that it's

[01:12:44] It's going to be a good time, and of course, my book comes out January the 8th, 2024. Tarot for the Heart book. I invite you to pre order. I, I just, I just want to read this description of the book, which [01:13:00] I, my editor put together and really felt like it resonates with the book. Absolutely.

[01:13:07] Yeah. Tarot has always been a powerful guide for introspection and inner work. So what better tool to use when we're ready to do the really hard work? Author Maria Menes takes a radical new look at the major arcana in this tarot workbook, which provides readers

[01:13:27] a unique, personal understanding of systemic racism and what steps we can take to begin to dismantle it. This is a book for anyone who has been overwhelmed, outraged, or frustrated and asked, but what can I do? This book, you don't have to be a tarot reader, I've, I, this is The guide to tarot that I wish I had, there's, you can definitely get to know the archetypes and the archetypes are the structure behind the work behind the book, but you don't have to know tarot.

[01:13:54] You don't have to care about tarot. And if you, you don't have to be a good tarot reader, you don't have to [01:14:00] Bad terror eater. Bad. What's, what's bad and good, this is for literally anyone who has asked, what can I do to confront systemic racism? I am so proud of it, and I invite you to come along with me, because I'm going along the journey, my journey is lifelong and I hope that this book, which is a spell out into the world can, can ripple out in ways that really really help liberate people from all of the things and the messages that we are being held down by.

[01:14:38] Ashley: Yay! Okay, so this is awesome. So I'm going to put links to everything in the show notes. Maria's website and everything, so everybody follow her, listen to her podcast, get her book. You, and I have to say, I really enjoy your Instagram. It's very first of all, you're just, you're beautiful. You're very, you're like, I sound creepy [01:15:00] saying this.

[01:15:00] I'm like, you're easy to look at because you're just so beautiful. Thank you.

[01:15:05] Maria: I feel, I, that's so nice of you to say. I feel like a smushed frog,

[01:15:11] Ashley: Like half

[01:15:12] Maria: of the time, but thank you. I do like to share about my personal life on Instagram because Magic is in the everyday and, sometimes I want to talk about my boobs and how that relates to magic and, whatever.

[01:15:26] And so, so thank you for being there. It's, it's not just a tarot profile. It's it's... It's magic in everyday life and I use my life as an example for other people. So thank you for being there and enjoying it. I, I just throw stuff on there and I'm glad, I'm glad it resonates with people.

[01:15:46] Ashley: Yes, it's super fun and interesting and I really enjoy it. And you'll enjoy it too, so follow. So everybody again, thank you maria and thank you everybody for listening again This is dying with the divine. We're on [01:16:00] instagram facebook tiktok threads If you like the show, give us a rating. It's really helpful.

[01:16:05] Give us a review. Even more helpful. And if you have any suggestions or anything you want to say to me, you can email me at dinewithedivinepod at gmail. com Or you can message me on one of those apps. I will get back to you, I promise. At some point. And if you want to follow me, actually, I'm at SankofaHS.

[01:16:22] That's S A N K O F A H S. And Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. Thank you so much once again, and everybody there, Maria, anybody listening, everybody have a fantastic week, and I'll see you next week. Goodbye!