Sicilian History and Badass Women with Melanie Frazza

Melanie

===

[00:00:00] Ashley: Hi, everybody. Welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm Ashley, your host, and together we'll be exploring the ancient, the magical, the mystical, and everything in between. So on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the beautiful island of Sicily and a princess. Yay! So I hope everyone's having a great week, and if you're not, I hope it gets really better soon.

[00:00:29] So today we Fraza.

[00:00:34] Yes. Hi. Thank you for having me. She is gracing us with her presence on the internet and for me here online, which I'm so happy about. She shares tons of information about Italy and more specifically about Sicilian culture. And she shares tons of fun facts about the food.

[00:00:54] She even talks about lullabies, folk traditions. She also shares her adorable grandfather who's so [00:01:00] cute and her beautiful, amazing family who I very much enjoy following you guys are all really cute.

[00:01:08] So how are you doing today, Melanie?

[00:01:11] Melanie: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. This is like my first podcast sort of experience. Yeah. So yeah, if I'm awkward weirdo sorry, but hopefully it'll

[00:01:22] Ashley: be okay. You're totally not an awkward weirdo and you're doing absolutely great. Okay, the first thing I had to ask you was when did you like, Oh first of all, congratulations, because you have a very fresh, beautiful baby.

[00:01:36] So congratulations on that. Thank you. You're welcome. I appreciate

[00:01:41] Melanie: it. It's been amazing and intense. And now I have two tiny humans. So it's just been like a lot of newness and transition and change and Being flexible and tired and all of the things.

[00:01:55] Ashley: Yeah, but yeah, you still look fantastic doing it all You know, [00:02:00] you're just a pleasure.

[00:02:00] It's

[00:02:01] Melanie: great thing a little blush and highlighter can't fix.

[00:02:04] Ashley: I mean I love it. So I want to ask you, how did you decide to start like sharing all this cool stuff about your culture? Because I love it.

[00:02:14] Melanie: Yeah, I appreciate that.

[00:02:15] I'm so glad people care. I think that's one of the biggest things is like, what if nobody cares about these traditions and different folk cultures and folk traditions, like I follow, Germanic like folk traditions or Swedish or Icelandic. Land egg or yeah, just so many like folk traditions.

[00:02:32] I follow as well, just because it's so interesting to me, to see what people were doing or how they processed the world's like before industrial capitalism. So even there's a beautiful folk singer on TikTok that sings a lot of Middle Eastern and Iranian folk songs. And she just has the most angelic voice.

[00:02:50] And then all of the indigenous folks, like sharing their traditions and their activism have been really inspiring as well. But I actually just, I've, I'm Sicilian [00:03:00] American. My grandparents are from Sicily. 1960s. My mom grew up speaking only Sicilian, and I spent almost every day with my grandparents, my nonna and my nonnu, growing up in northern New Jersey.

[00:03:13] I was definitely immersed in the recent immigrant Italian American culture growing up, like, all my Nona and Nono's friends were also other recent immigrants, everybody was, like, first or second generation, that was my age I was able to take Italian language classes from eighth grade on, because I lived in a really Italian area, and was just very much immersed in the culture, but I also found a lot of misogyny, And homophobia and racism and things with just that sort of political conservatism that came with a lot of Italian Americans.

[00:03:44] And just as a queer feminist punk in high school, there were a lot of guidos who were, like, Fucked up. So I also rejected a lot of Italian American culture and I had wanted to study Italian in college But I decided to study gender [00:04:00] studies instead being like feminists and queer and all these things so But I always like was still Sicilian and an Italian American and still would visit my no and get food from their garden or eat special foods.

[00:04:14] Even when I was an annoying vegan torturing my poor Nana, being like, I can't

[00:04:19] Ashley: eat this thing that you spent 12 hours making.

[00:04:22] Melanie: Which she was so gracious about. And I'm still vegetarian and will always be vegetarian no shade. But I was definitely a young, annoying vegan that was like, Nana, I'm not eating your beautiful food.

[00:04:35] But she tried, and she tried to make things vegan, so that was really sweet. Yeah, and I would be like, trying to make my like, vegan punk friends. Italian and Sicilian foods when we had these houses together in Philly and make zucchini flowers or tell them about like Sicilian street food like panelle, pane panelle, which are chickpea fritters.

[00:04:54] And, any other chance I got to connect with like progressive Italian Americans [00:05:00] felt so whole and I felt so whole and just I didn't have to be one or the other. And then later on, I... And I was like atheist and really very anti capitalist and all of this during this time.

[00:05:12] I did study abroad in Italy, what, when I was in my twenties, I lived in Italy for a job in my early thirties. And I've had all these different chances to connect with Italian culture in different ways. Here in the US, there in Italy as a student, as like a person living there and working there.

[00:05:29] And then, back here in the US, I. I had my daughter just about four years ago and my nonna passed away. Thank you. Just a few months after she was born. So my nonna only saw my daughter twice and was in the hospital from when my daughter was like 8, 9 weeks old to 15 weeks old. And then passed away when my daughter was 15 weeks old.

[00:05:53] So I just had this crazy experience of like literally feeling cracked open [00:06:00] from Experiencing birth and postpartum for the first time and just being like a highly sensitive person that like I really feel everything It takes me a long time to like process things or you know move through things I'm, change is really hard and then doing that while literally Watching my nana like fade away and feeling like that turn of the wheel of life where I was like Literally leveled up one generation in this really cyclical visceral way.

[00:06:29] And I barely got to, comprehend that I was a mother before my nonna was gone, so it was just really intense and... Really emotional and really hard at my Nonna both of my grandmothers are both really important to me. I have one like American grandma That's not Italian and they both were like mother figures with me for me and like I just you know, they have always given me the unconditional love and inspiration and comfort my whole life so And I just spent so much time with them and learned so much from them.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Losing my nana just as I wanted to be like, Look, I'm a mama now and I'm gonna do all these things I learned from you. Oh, yeah. It was so brutal. But I also just started experiencing magical things. And I basically, this is like the long way of saying I, I've always been into being Sicilian and it's always been important to me to be Italian.

[00:07:19] But it really... Has been my focus since losing my nonna and having my daughter at the same time because all I want is to Pass these traditions on to her And after living in italy there was like I could see there was like so much more That I was like, oh my god, I didn't know this. I didn't know this.

[00:07:35] We don't do this You know there we did assimilate a lot. I didn't even realize how much we My family had assimilated. Living there was like, there were so many new traditions and then being with my family in Sicily and my Sicilian family that live in other parts of Italy now, like they taught me so many new traditions that are things they've been doing, but might not have maybe stopped doing, after a couple of years or something.

[00:07:56] And then as I've been, so I've basically been like reconnecting, [00:08:00] unearthing, rediscovering, and just wanting to learn more that didn't even come from my nonna or my nonnu. Obviously they're just average like people from Sicily that grew up in post war poverty and moved to the U.

[00:08:13] S., but there's obviously the real like folk magic side of it and different kinds of folk magic too. Like within Sicily and Southern Italy, there's, tambourine folk music that has this like magical element. Because most of the folk music was to process something going on larger in the world with a hint of magic or mystery.

[00:08:33] So basically, I, and I, when my nunna passed away, I started having these sort of magical experiences of feeling her energy pass through me or dreaming about her in these ways that were, like, clear visitations and then reading about other people who You know, had dreams about recent loved ones and the way they appear and like the things they do or say like other communications, like finding a black feather in my kitchen, like when I left the room [00:09:00] and, left my baby in her high chair for one minute while I went to grab something and came back in and there was a black feather, like sitting in front of her and being like, there's nowhere that could

[00:09:09] Ashley: have come from.

[00:09:11] Holy moly. That's beautiful.

[00:09:14] Melanie: Yeah. And just all these repeated. Ways that my nonna showed me like she was still here. And then she was still with me and the baby. So

[00:09:24] Ashley: No, it's okay.

[00:09:28] I'm like, I'm getting emotional too. I'm like, oh, I love your nonna. She sounds awesome.

[00:09:33] Melanie: She would have loved you. She like loved anybody who just wanted to come over and eat her food.

[00:09:38] Ashley: This is no problem. I'm coming.

[00:09:42] Melanie: And she. Has just really shown that she's still there for me and then I started I've, after being atheist for so long, I was like, wow, I'm having these really just spiritual experiences, and So much of Italian folk magic and [00:10:00] Italian beliefs also center around the saints and all of this stuff that is part of Catholicism and I was really angry and grossed out by Catholicism as a queer punk feminist from age 15 on, but in reconnecting with the folk traditions, I realized the saints, to me, feel like similar to any multi theist multi deity whatever, ancient gods and goddesses, or anything that is whatever.

[00:10:25] Obviously they're not like in Catholicism considered God, but they like have their own associations and they're painting things of things and you pray to them and they have symbols and they have absolutely these really intense stories. And so I just started getting into kind of everything at once, like the like herbal rituals and the saints and anything that I could learn like Either from asking my family in Sicily Oh, did you do this?

[00:10:52] Or did your moms do this? Or did my nonna do this? Or asking my nonnu or remembering things my nonna did. And then finding [00:11:00] other Italian American creators online, like on Instagram and TikTok that aren't just like these Guido meme accounts, which I love. For sure. You'd be like tell me you're an Italian without telling me you're Italian and it's like a jar

[00:11:14] Ashley: of sauce or whatever, and you're like.

[00:11:18] Melanie: I love those too, as long as they're like not conservative, but I, these were like people who were like, they were like, Oh yeah, I've been, So many people have been doing this for so much longer than me. And it was just like really nice to start connecting with other Italian Americans and people of Italian diaspora.

[00:11:36] So Italians in Australia, Canada, other parts of Europe, like wherever. That also had been delving into folk traditions and a lot of it was like familial of what people have seen their family do and then learning from there. So there's books, there's online articles, like there, there are a couple Italian publications that like I can read.

[00:11:53] There's like ballarm. it, like it that does a lot of like Italian folk superstition, [00:12:00] folk magic, whatever, folk

[00:12:01] Ashley: culture. I'll put all that in the show notes too, yeah. Yeah, I can type it out for you.

[00:12:05] Melanie: Okay, cool. Yeah, so I would just read articles and then started getting books and seeing content online and like looking things up and asking family and also just dreaming about things.

[00:12:15] Like my dreams were always intense, but after. This time of literally feeling broken open and like spiritual feelings passing through my body and mind. Like I have started dreaming about herbs that like I have no herbal training and I would dream about something and then ask my friend and she'd be like, Oh, that's like chinko foil.

[00:12:35] And I was like, cool. I. Never heard of that. And I like, dreamt about it and dreaming about like stones like literally seeing like obelisks and Wands and different stones like and then googling it and being like, oh, okay this like red stone that I dreamt about there is red agate in Sicily not far where from my nonu's from.

[00:12:57] Wow. And carnelian [00:13:00] and they like have these associations that really like Mesh with what I need at the moment or like dreaming about a black sort of wand stone wand and then reading about Obsidian, and realizing duh, of course, Sicily has obsidian in Lipari because of the volcanoes. Okay, yeah!

[00:13:20] Yeah, so it was like, oh my god! And, just continuing to have, and dreaming about processions of people in a magical floral filled garden literally singing this song that I wrote, I woke up and wrote down the lyrics, and it was like, it's I don't know if it was like, Heaven, or the future, or alternate Utopia whatever, but just really...

[00:13:44] Dreams like that. And yeah, so I've just started believing in magic again. And when I was like a kid, I was definitely like a nerdy kid that like stayed indoors and read vampire books and thought the like witches were really cool. And I like wanted [00:14:00] like a crystal ball and my uncle like bought me a crystal ball, like a, this beautiful like teal colored crystal ball from this spiritual shop in Booth Bay Harbor, Maine, that I think is like still there.

[00:14:11] And I just really, I was so like thought witches and everything like magical was really cool when I was younger. But then when I became an atheist, I was like, Oh, I don't really believe in anything anymore. And it's just like the world and that's just what it is. And it sucks. And I like started believing in astrology cause it felt like it resonated, but then it felt weird.

[00:14:31] And then basically like after this experience with my Nana, I was like, I'm just going to believe in magic. I want to work, I

[00:14:38] Ashley: feel like nobody,

[00:14:41] Melanie: nobody's like taking points away from me or whatever. And if people want to stop being my friend, because now I believe in magical things fine, go be sad.

[00:14:48] I don't know, but it's been really amazing. And, I don't want to use it as a crutch for dealing with my own reality like obviously there's still harsh realities to deal with and I [00:15:00] still want to be like proactive of Changing my situation when it's hard. I'm not like gonna just be like pray and hope that someone does it for me You know, yeah, but I think like it's been really inspiring and invigorating to just believe things and it's unfolding because I don't know, I'm having a hard time believing in God.

[00:15:21] Because it feels patriarchal in the way the Catholic Church describes God, but I'm like, maybe there just is God, oh god, I don't know, and yeah, so it's like unfolding. It's complicated. Sometimes it feels contradictory Sometimes I question it and but then I always something else will happen and I'm like, oh this feels really real Yeah,

[00:15:42] Ashley: so Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:15:44] No, there's oh my gosh, that's so I totally relate I relate to so many things you said I grew up Catholic and I was always like I've said this before but like my parents are pretty like chill when it Comes to religion. They're just [00:16:00] like, okay, like God is good and that's fine So like they're not like shoving they never really shoved it down my throat, but I when I used to go to church I used to think if you guys keep saying that God is so nice But then you also say that God doesn't like gay people.

[00:16:16] And theoretically, if you read certain parts of the Bible, God apparently doesn't like me either. Because there's a lot of stuff about anti blackness and things like that. So I'm like I'm very confused. I was like, if he's merciful, then... If you, I remember, and I got a little trouble for this we, I had to take these like adult CCD classes because I didn't go when I was supposed to.

[00:16:35] Oh. Yeah. Oh. And I got like very, I was an atheist for a little while, but then I got like very religious because I was like, no, I do believe in this stuff and maybe let me give it another try. So I went, and I remember like they were talking and we were talking about like heaven or something and I was like, you know what?

[00:16:52] I have a theory about heaven. I was like, first of all, I believe that I personally believe that everybody's a little bit [00:17:00] right. I just think everyone's a little bit right. Everyone in the world. I think atheists are right, too. There, maybe there is some weird, we don't know. We can't see it.

[00:17:07] So anyway, but then I would be like, I think that no matter who you are, what you did, if you're nice, You're probably gonna go to the better place, right? It doesn't really matter who you were, what you did, or who you loved, or who you didn't love, or your sexual orientation. I don't think God really cares.

[00:17:22] He's way bigger than other stuff. Yeah. I was like, all you guys down here are making a big deal about nothing. But, I remember saying that at CCD and I got in a lot of trouble. But it was fine. Yeah. Yeah. I bet. Yeah, I was like, I really think that God is real worried about war and, child brides and not so much trans people but yeah this is my opinion yeah obviously that's

[00:17:44] Melanie: like how i feel too if there is like This force or deity that is like made everything which feels entirely possible. I don't know nobody, like we don't know Exactly. Like why can't it be you know, and yeah, then obviously that force or deity would not actually be like [00:18:00] bigoted You know, like that's ridiculous.

[00:18:02] That's like an invention of human insecurity

[00:18:06] Ashley: Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, when you get older and you learn about a lot of stuff like you said about patriarchy when you learn about All these different, even just like you talk about capitalism, all this stuff you learn about the way people are, and you're like, damn, for a while, I feel like everybody who grew up and you become a little left for a minute, you hate people.

[00:18:26] You're like, people are awful. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah,

[00:18:31] Melanie: it is really like disheartening.

[00:18:34] Ashley: You're like, this system is bad. Yeah. But then you're like, wait, I have to live in the world. So I can't hate everybody's I got to figure this out. But but yeah, all of it makes sense. And you also hit on something else that I feel too I'm super proud of my culture, too.

[00:18:49] But then I think of the shitty parts of it. And I'm like, oh literally in Ghana, where my dad's from, it's illegal to be gay. That's pretty shitty. So I'm like, that is really [00:19:00] upsetting to me. I super love being on it. I love my culture. I love our tradition, but there's certain things about it.

[00:19:05] I'm like, yeah, I know. I know. It's really bad guys. Yeah. Trust me. I get it. But I think it, it's still okay to be part, be proud of where you're from. And I think, yeah, everybody in the world, every culture. I like being American sometimes too, and there's a lot of fucked up things about America, but I don't hate America.

[00:19:26] I don't like it all the time, but I don't hate it. So I think it's hard for a lot of us to rectify that, these different things that happen, but it also is okay, I can be proud of these parts of my culture and acknowledge that these other things are shitty and aren't great. Exactly.

[00:19:40] Melanie: Yeah. And I think that's our job as like the generation we are now is that's the ancestral healing. Like for me, it's I know there was misogyny and physical violence and poverty and all of these things and so much misogyny. Like we can take the good, I can take the love for nature and art and food and craft and [00:20:00] like all the things that come with being Sicilian and Southern Italian and I can leave behind the bad stuff and the bad stuff about it being Italian American.

[00:20:08] And that's just like what's really important to me is that I really want, because so many other like radical and left leaning people were like. Oh my god, I'm also first or second generation Italian. I grew up hearing Italian my nonna, my nonnu, but I fully rejected Italian culture because of the conservative Italian American sort of mainstream voices.

[00:20:28] Like with that because of the Catholicism, right? So that it didn't go along with homophobia and sexism and racism and all this stuff. But I was like, but you can love being Italian American or Italian or whatever, Southern Italian and be like radical and we should make it better.

[00:20:43] And we have every right to claim this identity as well. So that's just. Also, why I've been focusing on it one, I just love it. I've always loved it, and since my nonna passed I want to hold on to it, and I want to know more, and delve deeper, and carry the flag for her, she carried the flag.

[00:20:59] [00:21:00] She was really proud of being Sicilian. She loved, the life that she made in the U. S. and in North Jersey, but she never lost her pride for being Sicilian. And she spoke Sicilian. She didn't, she wouldn't speak proper Italian. She criticized her sisters in Sicily. For switching over to proper Italian and was like, it basically in Sicilian what the fuck, who the fuck do you think you are with your proper Italian?

[00:21:25] We're Sicilian!

[00:21:26] Ashley: It's a different language,

[00:21:29] Melanie: We, don't, those northerners fuck that. And she was just, she was proud of it and it was really important to me and and now it feels important to me to carry that flag and, Also pass it on to my daughter, like we, we have history, we have art, we have like things that are also inherently anti capitalist, like the collectivity, the community, the the belief in the collectivity and community and family and not the individualism.

[00:21:57] The like belief in growing food or [00:22:00] getting food that other people grow and, like Super processed things that will that harm the earth and other, and I eat processed things, I love junk food too, but it's just I know the ethics around just smaller living, in Italy it's and probably other places too, other places it's like there aren't suburb suburbs, everything ends up being just inherently more like social or more collective.

[00:22:24] And of course there's still issues. in those places too. But wanting to pass on those things. And then just now that I like, know these things about magic and, or folk traditions and the saints and the Madonna, like Mary and other goddesses from other cultures these are just beautiful things that make life more rich.

[00:22:45] And I also have felt like part of capitalism and global globalization has been making things so hegemonic and ubiquitous that it's the same everywhere and and then once that happens you lose all these rich cultures like, [00:23:00] yes, that have, the full costumes and the traditions of weaving or embroidering or.

[00:23:06] Music, and, every culture has this things that you think of are, like, boring whatever. But it's Ireland and Scotland and all these places all have rich cultures. Sweden, all these places have super rich cultures. And obviously, South America and everywhere.

[00:23:20] Africa, the Middle East everywhere. Had beautiful rich cultures with rich storytelling to make sense of the world and a lot of it overlaps and I'm like, okay So humans have been believing in gods to make sense of the world and they now filter into these sort of Saints for Catholicism and Italian folk magic and folk traditions but like every culture has had these different deities to like make sense of what's happening and they've had You know, symbolism that goes with, what they're wearing jewelry.

[00:23:51] Yes. Had symbolism. You have special jewelry that came for special events and meant special things. And every little marking on ancient [00:24:00] tombs and ancient jewelry beading, meant something. Everything meant something and showed about that person's life or what their experience was or where their place in their society was.

[00:24:11] I just don't want to

[00:24:12] Ashley: lose that. Yes Oh my god. I love it. That's exactly how I feel. I that's why I love Hearing about people's cultures and I'm also have this weird thing about I love wedding costumes, like from every I have a Pinterest board. That's just like global wedding costumes because I just love that.

[00:24:31] So cool way to send that to me. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. It's so it's just so beautiful and every culture. And like you said, All the intricate details of why people wear this certain color or why you wear it like this. It's so beautiful and so cool. I'm like, yeah I don't want us to lose that as a culture.

[00:24:53] I feel like people are like, why do we need it? I'm like, cause it's cool. Like, why not? It's fun.

[00:24:58] Melanie: Yeah. And Ugh. [00:25:00] Capitalism has erased it, and with that erasure creates this emptiness. Yes. And we try to fill that emptiness with buying all the things, but in reality, if you reconnect with some of these folk traditions, you're like, Wow, I can spend my evening like, Making art.

[00:25:15] I'm and, so much of, especially U. S. culture is like, if you're not a modern arti like, a gallery artist, you're nothing, and don't make anything. But humans are creative. Who cares if it's shitty, or nobody ever cares about it, or just your friends buy it, or your friends put it up in their house, or you just gift it to people.

[00:25:31] Like, why, and so I started... Reconnecting in those ways too, where whereas in high school I made art in art class. We had art class every day or whatever, however often we had it. I think it was every day. And we made all these things. I had a really cool art program where we made fucking everything.

[00:25:46] Like stained glass, like block print, lino cut prints, like metal tooling, like actual photography, because I'm an elder millennial. So we had real photography that we had to [00:26:00] develop in a real dark room. Where you like could have made out with somebody, but I didn't because I'm a sad

[00:26:05] Ashley: loser. It's okay, I didn't make out with anyone in high school either.

[00:26:08] Yeah.

[00:26:09] Melanie: It's fine. Yeah, definitely not one of these like shows of like teenagers like making out in the dark. I know.

[00:26:16] Ashley: Or whatever. I was always like, wow, I wish I was that cool. Maybe I don't. It seems like a lot. Yeah, it's like a lot of drama. Who would, I'm glad

[00:26:23] Melanie: I didn't have that drama. I know. But we made, we had all this art and I also was like really into it and thought maybe I could be an artist or something, but then I was like into feminism and activism, so gender studies was like the way to go. But since also my nunna passed, I was like, I'm just gonna I just got the inspiration to start making sort of folk crafts again. So I started making lino cut prints and Hadn't done that in like almost 20 years.

[00:26:50] Like literally, yeah. Yeah, pretty much and they're not specifically Italian necessarily But it was like oh I'm gonna use like some of this iconic Italian imagery that [00:27:00] we see in folk traditions and folk beliefs like the cornicello The horn which is like to ward off the malocchio, an evil eye.

[00:27:08] It's like I'm gonna make prints of That's what I'm feeling right now or the cuore sacro, the sacred heart, which just feels like a beautiful image from Catholicism and like Catholic church iconography, but also feels magical on its own. And then started doing metal tooling because I really liked that.

[00:27:26] Like in some of the Catholic churches, there's these ex voto and they're like the metal body parts. And I remember seeing them. When I visited Italy for the first time with my family when I was 13, we went to the Santuario di Santa Rosalia, the grotto in Monte Pellegrino, outside of Palermo, there's like a cave sanctuary to the patron saints of Palermo, Santa Rosalia, and I remember on the wall were pinned these like metal little body parts.

[00:27:55] And then I saw them again when I was living in Italy in some of the churches we visited to see [00:28:00] like the art and stuff. There'd be these like little metal body parts. And it was like, Oh, those are ex voto. And people put them on the wall to petition like Oh, I, I have this disease or this ailment or this illness.

[00:28:12] Can you help heal this like part of my body or my loved one's body or whatever? So I remember my nonna explaining that to me. When we visited the Sanctuary of Santa Rosia when I was 13, and I just thought that was so magical and so interesting and cool. And then I did metal tooling in high school, but I didn't connect it then, but then since then I've been like, oh.

[00:28:32] I love metal tooling I want to do that now and make Ex Voto, and especially for, I haven't done this because it's been hard, but I was like, I want to make top surgery Ex Voto for folks that are doing double, chest surgeries and whatever, and that could be really cool and affirming to have Trans experiences are represented in some of these x moto, Yeah, or maybe a trans artist could make them, being that I'm cisgendered, maybe, I don't know.

[00:28:56] Yeah. But it was like, something I was like, oh, this is really cool, or as I'm, [00:29:00] like, nursing my baby, I was like, oh, maybe I can make these boob x moto. Yeah! Pray to the Madonna to have a good supply or whatever, yeah so that's just been really cool, too And there's like the generic one of a quarry sacro I see that a lot like these metal like sacred hearts that I bought one for in Naples when I was there for five euro.

[00:29:19] And then I started making some of my own with these like little bronze plates. So cool. Yeah. So that's been really cool too. And again, it's not like this direct thing of a tradition of, Italian folk magic or whatever, but it's like part of that mix of These multi level, leveled beliefs in folk Catholicism and then like craft and art and all of that.

[00:29:43] So that's been really

[00:29:44] Ashley: cool as well. Oh my god, that is so awesome. I love all of that. Okay. Are there

[00:29:50] Melanie: any crafts that you do that reflect like your heritage? Not,

[00:29:57] Ashley: not well, a little bit. I do I do [00:30:00] make some baskets. I do I weave baskets. That's so cool. Yeah, I haven't done it in a minute, but I have weave baskets, and I have you grew up with your grandma.

[00:30:09] I didn't grow up with mine, but I, my grandma actually, the one that I'm very close to, she died before I was born, which is why it's very strange that I'm close to her. People will be like, that's weird. But she comes to me all the time, and dreams, and stuff, and... She used to weave baskets. I didn't know that, but one day I had a dream that I should start weaving baskets, so I did.

[00:30:28] Yeah, and then my mom's oh my god, my mom used to weave baskets. I was like, what? And she's yeah! And yeah, it was crazy, but so that was one thing I do, and I do sew, and my grandpa was a tailor. So that's something that I also loved, and I have some of his pins, so it makes me feel close to him.

[00:30:45] But other than that, not like specific stuff, but... There's just little things that I do that do make me feel closer, to my roots. It's always fun. I cook a lot of traditional food too, that, which is always a good time. That's so

[00:30:58] Melanie: amazing. I [00:31:00] love that. Oh, thank you. A similar one. I started learning tambourine, like Italian folk music on tambourine simply just because I thought it was cool and it was one of those folk things that I like was like, I want to fucking do this.

[00:31:12] I am like a spaz. I've never been a musician, but I tried learning drums in like my punk youth and I never got that far. I liked the feeling of the percussion and the vibration. And I was like, and then I saw other Italian American folks learning. Tambourine, and I started doing lessons with this teacher who's from Rome, and she lives in North Jersey, Alessandra Belloni, and learning really quickly like that, actually this Italian folk music, even the Tarantella, which we dance at every like baptism, communion, wedding, like whatever.

[00:31:42] The Tarantella is a folk magic dance to rid a person of the poison from a spider bite. The bite of the Tarantella. Yes!

[00:31:52] Ashley: You the other day on Instagram. Yeah! And

[00:31:55] Melanie: I was like, oh my god! And that actually even in ancient... [00:32:00] Like other ancient cultures, it was a lot of like women that played the tambourine as part of like rites and rituals.

[00:32:06] So whether there was like funerals, weddings, like state, events, like it was part of the ritual to have like women playing tambourine, particularly. Then it changed and men play too. And also in the southern Italy and in the south in Sicily, there was a lot of like tenant farmers and people working in agriculture in like really bad conditions, like with agriculture then being taken either by the north, like from the bounty of the south or Mafia leader like or proto mafia.

[00:32:34] So people would work outside and play tambourine and that was like part of you know Getting through the day and like whatever it was a it's a lot of like healing and like songs that are like exorcisms or songs that are like laments like, lamenting like violence against women working in the fields and picking you know the different produce that was growing in southern italy like or songs about literally the [00:33:00] different saints or the Madonna and praying to them and that was like really also one of the first ways I could accept sort of these spiritual feelings.

[00:33:08] So at first I was like, I don't want to sing these like Catholic songs. Yeah. And then it was like, oh, they're like magic. It's magic. And just, I don't know another word for it. Magic feels so cheesy, but it's No, that's fine. It's beyond the classification of just Catholicism, it's Yeah.

[00:33:23] Mystery and the divine I guess maybe that's it the divine yeah, so it was really cool. And then I did tamperine for the past two years last summer. We were in italy I'm hanging out with my nonna's nieces Who are like older they're like in their 60s and 70s And my nonna was like the youngest of her family and her sister had her kids pretty young so like she has these nieces that are Mini non does to me.

[00:33:46] They're not as old at my no died when she was like 91 just a few years ago So they're younger than her but they like have that vibe. Yeah, But they were like, oh, yeah, you played so cool that you've been learning tambourine you know your nonna loved tambourine and we [00:34:00] like our you know, our mom And the other sister saved up and bought her a tambourine.

[00:34:05] Oh my god,

[00:34:06] Ashley: that's so sweet! Yeah! I bet she's gonna cry again!

[00:34:12] Melanie: And she just wanted to play tambourine, and I was like, I never heard this in all this time. I had no idea. And similar to your grandma coming to you and saying make these fucking baskets. And like her inadvertent way, it was like, Absolutely, yeah.

[00:34:28] Yeah, they like tell, and it's really beautiful. And I am just like so happy that it was something she loved. And I wish we could have bonded about it in real life, oh my god, yes. Yeah, apparently they bought her a tambourine and she liked to play it for them and I don't even know.

[00:34:42] That was like, that's all I know. That's

[00:34:44] Ashley: awesome! Yeah. Aw, that's so beautiful. I'm so glad that you got to know that, and you were just like, Oh, I'm gonna try the tambourine. And then they're like, Oh, actually, here's a giant connection again to your Nona. I love that.

[00:34:57] Melanie: Yeah,

[00:34:58] Ashley: it was really cool.

[00:34:59] [00:35:00] Yeah. Speaking of cooking and ancestry and all this good stuff, we're going to talk about some Sicilian foods. I don't know any Sicilian foods, everybody. So if I mentioned something, Melanie, that you're like, that's a lie. I'm sorry.

[00:35:21] Oh, and real quick, before we move on to the food, I wanted to say you had we talked, you're talking about colors and different things before, and you had on your Instagram A little, a bag and it was the coolest bag I've ever seen. It was it's called Koffa. Yeah, Koffa bag. Yeah, it was so cool.

[00:35:38] Everybody, please go to her Instagram and look at this bag. I need one immediately.

[00:35:45] Melanie: It's so cute. I wonder if there's like a similar sort of bag, especially if your culture like of weaving or your history of weaving. because it's from woven palm leaves and it started, the coffee bag started as like the basket that Sicilian [00:36:00] peasants would like weave and take around to like actually feed animals and yeah have the grain to feed their donkeys and stuff and then it started being adorned in like this traditional Sicilian folk stuff.

[00:36:11] So like the pom poms and the mirrors and these like primary colors and So they're like supposed to be like hand adorned hand woven pom And there are still these makers in Sicily that make these beautiful koffa bags. So I think so pretty They're probably similar to other like Middle Eastern or African cultures that, also have the history of weaving.

[00:36:30] So yeah, maybe there's like a cousin

[00:36:35] Ashley: Probably and yeah, we're gonna we're gonna talk a lot about you'll see we're gonna talk about it. So we're gonna talk about the food decks Yes. Because it's cool. And, okay, the first food we have on here, so I had 10 Sicilian foods. Oh, you're so cute. Or 10 must try Sicilian, when you're in Sicily.

[00:36:51] All right. So the first one we have is arancini? Arancini, yeah. Okay. So these are like rice balls, [00:37:00] right? Yes. Okay. That's it. I live in New Jersey, so I'm very used to Italian food, and one thing I gotta say that I love about people whose family are from Southern Italy, or specifically, actually, Sicily, is they love to tell you about being Sicilian or being Italian, and I love it, yes and I feel that from all the like, gatherings Sicilians And people from South, I don't know people, a lot of, most of my friends who are Italian, their families are from Southern Italy.

[00:37:35] But, they have parties like Africans, so I'm very into it you guys have so much food, you, it's you guys party for no reason, and I'm like, yes, this is why I love Italian people. I almost forgot that you're in Jersey. Yes, I'm like in Central Jersey near Princeton and Trenton area.

[00:37:55] Yeah,

[00:37:55] Melanie: you should come to my non news yard and we and teach me to weave

[00:37:58] Ashley: basket Oh my god, [00:38:00] I'll totally do it That's awesome I was like

[00:38:04] Melanie: putting you on the spot, but I've been wanting to learn to weave baskets because I follow these like Sicilian other like folk like Carrier tradition carriers like this guy Claudio Romano, who's really cool and he's in Archi Reale Sicily, I'm pretty sure I can't remember But he like weaves all these beautiful baskets and I'm like I just want to go there and learn how to weave baskets from him and play tambourine with him and he like does every single like cool folk craft, like

[00:38:31] Ashley: he's amazing.

[00:38:32] Oh, that's so neat. Yeah. Oh my god. But yes I will get myself together one day and I will come hang out with you and weave baskets because you're awesome. Yay! I'm having a good time. So we

[00:38:43] Melanie: had I'll feed you some arancine for

[00:38:44] Ashley: baskets. Great, because I'm already hungry, honestly. Yeah. So we have these they're like risotto rice that are breaded and deep fried.

[00:38:53] Yes. And they have saffron inside. Yeah. That is really neat. I've never I've [00:39:00] actually had rice balls, but I don't think I've had them like that. A little different.

[00:39:05] Melanie: Yeah. There's like Roman ones. that have more like tomato inside,

[00:39:09] Ashley: but I think that's the kind that I've had. Yeah,

[00:39:11] Melanie: but the Sicilian ones start with the risotto and the saffron and it's actually another influenced from when Sicily was an Arab emirate.

[00:39:21] There were like a couple hundred years that it was an part of an Arab emirate. So there's Arabic architecture and Arabic words and Arabic foods and Arancine and saffron and like that are are one of those as well. I love it. Yeah, it's

[00:39:35] Ashley: cool. Yeah, then we have Capo, Caponata? Caponata. Okay.

[00:39:41] Caponata and this is now they call these ab abergreen, abergine. Oh,

[00:39:47] Melanie: aubergines? I think that's like the British way of saying

[00:39:50] Ashley: eggplant. Eggplant, okay. Because I was like, what is going on here? What's it? And then I said, isn't that just an eggplant? Yeah, that's just I didn't know if it was different. It has so [00:40:00] apparently with this, Recipe it can go different.

[00:40:02] It's different from house to house. So some places put pine nuts raisins Vinegar and it's usually served at room temp it can be turned into a stew with celery onions tomatoes and you can put capers olives and more pine nuts if you want Yeah, it's like has this

[00:40:19] Melanie: agrodolce, which is like sweet and sour sort of taste because there is like a sweetness from whether there's raisins or currants in it and the eggplant and some of the other things like have a little bit of sweetness.

[00:40:32] And then there's a little bit of sour from like the, like the celery or whatever. But, and like the olives are briny, capers are briny. Yeah. But yeah, that's being vegetarian in Sicily, these are some of my go tos, because there's always caponata that you can have just like on toasted bread, and it's really good.

[00:40:50] Ashley: Okay, nice. Yes. And then we have we also, they don't, this is not a recipe. This is just red prawns. Oh, [00:41:00] yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:00] Melanie: Yeah, I'm like vegetarian, so I've never eaten the seafood, but the, definitely the like, big prawns and shrimps and seafood is really big with Sicily being an island.

[00:41:09] Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Then we have, I'm going to say this wrong Bussante al pesto trapanese.

[00:41:15] Trapanese. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bussante al pesto

[00:41:21] Melanie: trapanese.

[00:41:22] Ashley: Yes. Perfect. So this is like a pesto. Yes. And it looks really nice. It has, you can put almonds, tomatoes, basil, garlic. Perfect. And. Pecorino cheese. Pecorino cheese. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, cuz

[00:41:36] Melanie: like the pesto everybody knows here in the US is the green basil pesto.

[00:41:41] , which is actually from Liguria. From Genoa. So in Italy it's like pesto genove. And this Sicilian pesto has all those things you described and it's like a more like reddish color cuz of the tomatoes. And it's really good. Yeah,

[00:41:54] Ashley: yeah, and then we have pasta alla norma. Yes. This is [00:42:00] another

[00:42:01] Melanie: Vegetarian go to.

[00:42:03] Yeah, it's like fried eggplants on top of pasta and then usually there's like fresh Ricotta salata, which is like the salty ricotta on it. Yes So if you gotta love eggplant, it's hard.

[00:42:16] Ashley: Yeah, you gotta which is no problem. And then we have I'm not going to go all the way, but I'll just mention like one more.

[00:42:23] So then we also have cannolis. Cannolis

[00:42:29] are delicious and I'm not even into a lot of cream, but I'll eat a cannoli any day and anytime. Yeah. As you should. Exactly. As you should. Yeah. It's very important. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:40] Melanie: They're so good. And the filling traditionally is a sheep's milk ricotta. So I don't know how many places in the U.

[00:42:48] S. really go to the effort of getting Sicilian sheep's milk to make the filling. Yeah. Yeah. If you find somewhere legit It's like a different flavor and now that I'm not vegan anymore,

[00:42:59] Ashley: sorry. [00:43:00] I have had

[00:43:01] Melanie: them with, when I was in Italy from my cousin's restaurant with the real sheep's milk Sicilian ricotta and it was like pretty amazing.

[00:43:09] Oh yay!

[00:43:10] Ashley: Yeah. Okay, so those are some sicilian foods now for that up so this is a part of the show We're gonna plug myself before we move on. Yeah, If you guys like the show make sure that you are following us or subscribing on whatever. Podcasting platform you listen to you can follow me on dine with the divine on Instagram and dine with the divine on Facebook And if you really like it Give us a five star rating that way people can find the show and if you want to email me you can it's a dime with The divine pot at gmail.

[00:43:39] com Okay, I got through that quick because I want to get to the rest of it. Yeah All right. So now we have we're gonna talk a little bit Tea time, which is where we're gonna do some educational stuff. So I was like, what are we gonna talk about? there's so much to talk about when it comes to Sicily that I was like we have to start at the beginning we're gonna Do a I'm gonna call the quick and dirty [00:44:00] version of Sicilian history.

[00:44:01] Oh my god. I love this. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a

[00:44:05] Melanie: Most conquered place in the world or like literally it's not it's like nuts

[00:44:11] Ashley: How much has gone on there? It's literally wild. Just so you know, if anybody's listening and they're like, where actually is Sicily? Okay, so you know how Italy is like a boot, right?

[00:44:22] So at the tip of the boot, like in the front of the boot off, right off there, there's a little island that looks like a triangle. And that's Sicily. Actually, the first name of Sicily was, I forget how to say it, but it had to do with the fact that it looks like a triangle. That's where Sicily is and if you look in the mediterranean sea from left to right from like spain morocco to like Lebanon, it's literally right in the middle of everything and that's part of the reason that it has such a Interesting history, right?

[00:44:54] All right. Like I said, this will be the quick and dirty version. Some parts are funny So there's one part that I find it's [00:45:00] particularly funny, but we'll get to it all right, so Because of its location it was ended up being super important for trade for all these different countries from Asia to Europe to Africa so the first, first in the beginning, there was three tribes in Sicily.

[00:45:17] There was Ilim Ilimi, I hope it's something like that, Ilimi, and they lived on the west coast. And then the Sicani, which is what Sicily is named after, they lived in the middle. And then, the Sikuli kind of lift on the East Coast and then around 11th century BCE, the Phoenicians, which you probably, you may have heard of Phoenicians from like 11th grade history class, they were a big trading culture before the Greeks started.

[00:45:45] They were mostly from like Crete and that, that area. They set up shop in Sicily because they're like, we need to trade with the Africans to get a bunch of stuff and this is a great place. So they were like, okay, cool. So they started hanging out there for a [00:46:00] while and they were seafaring people. So they were all over the place and it was really good for them.

[00:46:05] But then in the 8th century, The Greeks moved in and here's the problem. The Greeks, okay, let me go back for a second. The Phoenicians, the way they traded with Northern Africa was through Carthage, okay? Carthage is aka Tunis now, which is the capital of Tunisia. The Phoenicians were fine with the Carth, Carthinians, I don't know, the people of Carthage, they were fine.

[00:46:31] But the Greeks, And the people of Carthage were always fighting. So this was, now, the Phoenicians were like, Greeks, could you chill out? We're trying to trade with them. And the Greeks were like, absolutely not, we have no chill. So this became a big issue. But the Greeks, they established Syracuse which is in Sicily.

[00:46:47] Not the one in New York yeah, the major port and whenever they were fighting with the people in Carthage, they would use it to bring all the army there. So this went on and on and it was becoming a [00:47:00] problem. The tribes of the Sikani and the Sikuli kind of moved more inland and they let the Greece kind of chill on the coast.

[00:47:07] So whatever it was happening. And then actually, quick tip in Greek mythology. They say that Athena, through Mt. Edna, which is an active volcano in Sicily, Onto the island of Sicily because she was trying to kill a giant that was probably was hiding in Sicily Yeah, there's

[00:47:24] Melanie: so much mythology around Mount Etna.

[00:47:27] Yes Amazing like from that exactly that like these giants live inside of her and she's like She's just so many like mother goddess like fertility Like all this stuff and has been in Sicily and they still call her You know machi, the Sicilian word for mother, or munchibedda the Beautiful, all these words that basically are like around this beautiful mother bed that machi all these things.

[00:47:54] So it's really cool Yeah,

[00:47:56] Ashley: I love that Yes, it's very cool to like just it's very [00:48:00] picturesque. I was looking at picture of that. That's very beautiful Yeah, and she gets pissed. Yeah, she's and she is a back active volcano everybody. So do not mess with Not playing any games So then, so the Greeks, like I said, the Greeks are fighting now with the Phoenicians, and it's not great.

[00:48:15] So then the Romans were like, you know what, since you guys are fighting, we're gonna come up and scoop Sicily up. So they did, and this is around 240 A. D. Now the interesting thing about that is the Romans didn't actually influence Sicilian culture so much, because there was a lot of Greek influence already, and Phoenician, they were still doing their own thing, but the Sicilians actually produced a couple of really important Historians that ended up doing a history for Rome and the whole area So during this time also the first christian communities were set up in sicily Coming from rome now. Oh amongst the earliest christian martyrs were St.

[00:48:57] Agatha of cat [00:49:00] catania. Yes, and then saint lucie of syracuse Yeah. Okay. And they're still

[00:49:03] Melanie: really big. They're huge in Italian and Sicilian folk traditions because they are. These patron saints, so Sant'Agata has like these special desserts that are still eaten in her honor that resemble her breasts because that was like part of her sad story.

[00:49:19] Ashley: Oh, I think I know this thing. Yeah. The breasts got cut off, right? Yeah. Yeah. They cut off

[00:49:23] Melanie: her breasts and God healed her. Yeah. And then she like had a plate with her breasts on it. So now, to this day Sicilians eat the minni di Sant'Agata, which is literally like the boobs of Saint Agata.

[00:49:34] I love that. And there's these little boob shaped cakes. And then Santa Lucia, she has her thing in December 13th, and actually if you look, American Girl Dolls, there's the Santa Lucia stuff that Swedish and Northern European traditions do that Kirsten does in the American Girl Doll books, if anybody remembers.

[00:49:53] Her Christmas her candle crown with the

[00:49:57] Ashley: candle. yes, I totally remember this. Me too, [00:50:00] yeah. They

[00:50:01] Melanie: do Santa Lucia, I think they say it Lucia, I don't know how they say it, maybe they say Santa Lucia, I don't know, the Northern Europeans, but in Italian and Sicilian it's like Santa Lucia, and then there's like special foods that you eat, because she also has saved the city a couple times, and saved Siracusa from famine, and all of these things, and She's the patron saint of sight and eyes and she carries her eyes on a plate because they like, gouge out her eyes as part of her tragic trauma story.

[00:50:27] A lot of body parts on plates. I don't know. And then eating foods that represent them. Totally not weird.

[00:50:34] Ashley: It's I love it. It's like when we love our traditions with everybody has traditions, you're like, it's pretty weird, but this is something we do and it's fine. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love the drama.

[00:50:46] I know. It's amazing. Yeah. And then speaking of Northern Europeans, actually, then in about two not these guys, but in a second, 200, 80 AD, the Franks, aka basically the French, they come by, and they take [00:51:00] Syracuse now. And then, to about 200 ish, a little less than 200 ish years later, there is the fall of Rome, okay?

[00:51:08] The Roman Empire has now ended because... A bunch of Germanic tribes came down and just started fucking it up. So they had to end up splitting it up, and I'll tell you that in a second. But in 440 AD now a Germanic tribe called the Vandals, and they're from like southern Poland. They took over Sicily.

[00:51:27] Now, once Rome was split into two, we have the Western Roman Empire, which is what we mostly know as the Roman Empire Now. And we have the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire. This is centered in Constantinople, which is modern day Istanbul in Turkey. Now we have two empires. So now, the Byzantine Empire ends up scooping up Sicily.

[00:51:52] And for the next 300 years... It actually actually for the next 300 years, it goes between a bunch of hands. It goes between the [00:52:00] Vandals, those guys from southern Poland, the Ostrogoths, which I forget where they're from, but Google it. They're from some other area in Western Europe, like around Germany, and the Byzantine Empire.

[00:52:12] So the three of them keep juggling it and then it ends up with the Byzantines. Now, here's the funny story. Now in 826, Now the Byzantines are ruling Sicily. They have a governor in Sicily named Euphemus. Euphem... Euphemus.

[00:52:32] I'm sorry guys. I'm sorry. So we're just gonna call him euphemesis. Okay. Sorry. Oh Gosh so he was like, I'm the governor of Sicily. Everything's fine until he decided to kidnap a nun I don't know why he did this, but he did he said I'm gonna kidnap this nun and make her marry him marry me So at the time, the emperor of the Byzantine Empire, his name was Michael II, and he was like, here's a thing, you actually can't do that.

[00:52:57] I don't know if it was like cause back [00:53:00] then they didn't care too much about women, but I think she was like a woman of God, so they were like that's really not cool, you can't do that much. The other side of the story they say is that this particular nun, I forget her name, it starts with an H, I'll put the story up so people can read it, but she was also promised to another.

[00:53:18] family. So they were like, oh, and her family was like predominant. So they got mad and went to Michael and were like he kidnapped her now she can't marry this other dude. And so the Michael was like, okay, here's the thing. his top general, he sends Constantine, he says, go to Sicily, and I want you to cut off Euphemus's nose.

[00:53:39] Okay, but now to me now, I don't know getting your nose cut off really sucks I get that but Euphemus did a lot like he got very upset So what he did was he ran away and where did he go? He went to Carthage aka Tudis So he went down there, and he found the, this guy, and his name was Zayedat [00:54:00] Allah. So Zayedat Allah was at the time basically the king of Tunisia.

[00:54:04] And Tunisia had a small empire at this time, and he begged him. He's please, can you go to Sicily and just fight everybody? Because Michael's trying to cut off my nose, and I can't. So the guy was like, okay. So he went there, he brought a whole bunch of people, he brought some Arabs, some Berber people, some Cretan people, and some Persians, and they had a whole army, and they went there and they fought with the Byzantines.

[00:54:32] Now, they ended up conquering the Byzantines at this time. So now they were like, actually, since we conquered them and we saved Euphemus's nose, let's just stay a while. So they did. They stayed for a few hundred years. They're like, we're just gonna chill here. Actually, interestingly enough, they brought oranges, lemons, pistachios, and sugar cane.

[00:54:55] But what was really annoying and what the Sicilian people really hated [00:55:00] was they put a tax on people who wanted to practice Christianity because they wanted more people to be Muslim because they were Muslim. But but they let them live, basically. They didn't go and kill everybody.

[00:55:11] They were like, if you want to be Christian, you just have to pay a tax. Okay? So obviously the Sicilians were like, we're here first. This is really fucking annoying. But they just dealt with it for a while. Okay, and then they only dealt with it until about the 11th century When the romans were like actually we want sicily back.

[00:55:27] So they went and hired a bunch of Normans the normans are from normandy which is france and the normans are like christianized Ancestors of Vikings who ended up in France. Okay, so they hired them. They said go over there to Sicily and fuck them up So they did so they fought the Arabs and they ended up having the Arabs go back to Tunisia Not all of them just some of them a lot of them had intermarried and the culture was like ingrained there It's been like 300 years so [00:56:00] then They were like,

[00:56:02] we live here now and they started to actually drive out A lot of the Muslims, and they actually started to try to convert people, not from the religion, but trying to make people now speak Latin. This was a new thing, instead of their native Sicilian language. And they tried to make it more of the language of the church and administration.

[00:56:23] Which was, ended up being successful in the end, but people were still speaking their own language and people were still even speaking Greek at this time People were still speaking Greek from back then. All right, then in the 1224 this guy Frederick the second who was a Holy Roman Empire ended up expelling the rest of the Muslims from Sicily and That was the end of that during this time People were realizing like, oh, we're really there's a lot going on in Sicily and there's a lot of different people here And we speaking all these languages and now they were like we need to go back to everybody speaking Sicilian So everyone [00:57:00] definitely started speaking Sicilian at this time and everything was fine Now we go to there was the plague blah blah blah.

[00:57:07] It was really bad there was also an earthquake because like I said, there's an active volcano right there and then The Bourbon dynasty owned them for a while, then the British owned them for a while. Then in the 1860s, Italy decided to unify, because Italy was more like city states before that.

[00:57:25] Yeah, people

[00:57:26] Melanie: don't realize it wasn't Italy, like it was different nations, basically, because there was all this still control of different parts of Italy from like France. And Germany and these other places. It's like crazy because Italy feels like so ancient to us. Yes. But in reality, as a unified country the way we know it today, it's younger than the U.

[00:57:47] S.

[00:57:47] Ashley: Yes! Italy, yes. And it's really hard. I remember looking up Italian history and being like, Italian quote unquote history doesn't start to the late 1800s. Yeah, 1861.

[00:57:58] Melanie: Yeah, it's like literally [00:58:00] from our Civil War time period. Yeah,

[00:58:02] Ashley: it's bananas. It's pretty wild. So at this point though, and it's hilarious, this Similar kind of thing reminds me of something that happened in New Jersey a couple years ago.

[00:58:11] They tried to like, at least down here where I live, they tried to be like, we need to combine some of these towns. And all these people were like, we don't want we don't want to be with that town. We don't want to be with that town. So I live in Mercer County. Okay. And they tried to combine like Trenton and Ewing.

[00:58:31] What? And if, and people who are from New Jersey, Trenton is like a economically like lower status than like Ewing. So people in Ewing were like, we don't want to be with Trenton. And yeah, they tried to, because they're like, there's, which is true. There's too many towns in New Jersey. For note my town is one square mile.

[00:58:49] It doesn't really make sense. Yeah, it's very odd. Yeah That's so funny. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's hilarious. But so they were doing all this moving [00:59:00] around in Italy and people weren't really liking it and all this Political discourse isn't good for the economy. So shit was not good, right? So this is when you start seeing a lot of emigration from Italy to the US and to other places around the world America yeah, that

[00:59:20] Melanie: was a big one.

[00:59:20] Like I know that folks were going to like what's now like Argentina and Venezuela and all

[00:59:25] Ashley: these places Yes, and we talked about Padre Pio in a prior episode, and his dad left to come to America to find work, and he's from Southern Italy. So all these guys were leaving and coming, and oh, I forgot to mention this, but earlier when the Romans had Sicily.

[00:59:43] They were honestly using Sicily as just like a farm. They were taking a lot of crops because Sicily grew wheat. Sicily grew everything for everybody. Yeah. The mythology around

[00:59:52] Melanie: it is this place of fertility. And there's so much like magical mythology around it from Mount Etna.

[00:59:58] And the [01:00:00] sign of the Sicilian flag with the Trinacria is like this Medusa head and there's like these weenie legs. Yeah, the green legs. And it's this like super fertile, like literally just magical freaking place. It's beautiful. Yeah, and everybody just takes from

[01:00:16] Ashley: it. Yeah, I know. Anybody watch, what's that show that I just watched?

[01:00:20] They were just in Sicily this season. White Lotus? Yeah! Woo! White Lotus is intense. I love that show.

[01:00:32] Melanie: Real quick to go with since you're doing the history of all the like conquerors My nonna's side of the family. There's some folks that are fair and have like Blonde hair and blue eyes and and my one cousin is called Giovanni Normano.

[01:00:48] Ashley: Oh,

[01:00:49] Melanie: neat! And they literally call him like, Giovanni, like Norman Giovanni. Because they're like, that shit must have been from the, like when the Normans were [01:01:00] here. Yes! And it's so funny that that history, carries down. Like you can have a nickname of Norman Giovanni basically. And Francesco is fair, so far, and I'm wondering if when we go, they'll be like, Oh, Francesco Normano, we haven't taken him to Sicily yet, but it's like, you can see the different cultures like in how different the people look in Sicily too.

[01:01:27] Ashley: Yes. Oh my gosh, I love that. Yeah, so cute. So yeah, so then we got to the modern age, and then there was World War II, which really sucked. So there was that, but now actually now a lot of people use Sicily as a way of getting out of Africa. So it's become kind of an emigration port for those people.

[01:01:50] Or a way into, I should say, a way into Europe in Sicily. Oh, and the other issue that people know Sicily for is like the godfather. [01:02:00] And a lot of the mafia stuff actually ended up happening. When all this political discord was happening, because, shit wasn't getting done by the government, so the people, these crime organizations were able to thrive at that time.

[01:02:15] That's how those things end up starting normally anyway. Okay, so that is your short and dirty history of Sicily. And next, we're going to talk about, we're going to have our story time. We're gonna have our fairy tale, but really before we have our fairy tale, I'm gonna quickly tell a different story, because I think it's really interesting and everybody can go and research.

[01:02:37] There's probably a million podcasts about this story, but it's a story I heard and I thought this is so interesting. So this is the story of this woman named Franca Viola. If you've never heard of her, Google her. It's a really interesting story and I'm just telling this very quickly because it's I want to get to the lighter stuff.

[01:02:54] This is dark. So trigger warning for like abuse and Sexual assault everybody. Okay. So [01:03:00] what happened? Oh and kidnapping. So there was this woman named Franca Viola and She was living in El Camo. I think El Camo Sicily and She was 15 when she got engaged to this guy named Filippo now Filippo's was the nephew of this mafia guy and he was doing some crimes with his Mafia uncle.

[01:03:22] Filippo gets arrested, and he gets sent to prison, actually I think he gets sent to prison in Germany, and he's there for a little while. Now when he's in prison, Franca's dad is okay Franca, you probably shouldn't marry this guy, cause he's a dirtbag, and she's agreed, I'm not gonna marry this guy.

[01:03:38] So he gets back out of jail, and he gets back to Sicily, and he's Franca, are we gonna get married? She's actually, absolutely not, you are a dirtbag.. So he starts threatening her, and Stalking her and just being a piece of garbage. So then one night. I think it's like the day after Christmas has happened he goes and Kidnaps [01:04:00] franca.

[01:04:00] He goes into her house. He beats up her mother, which is just insane and her brother was like really young I think it was like eight the story said and he's holding on to her leg and they're trying to take her And they like beat up his for her brother. So they steal her. This is Filippo and a bunch of his friends steal her, they take her to this barn, and they basically keep her in there for a week, and they're sexually assaulting her over and over again.

[01:04:26] Now, the whole time Filippo is you've got to marry me, and she's I'm not marrying you. So he keeps, kid, he keeps her kidnapped. And during this time now, he goes to Franco's dad, and listen, because, and I'll tell you why, because I have assaulted your daughter, she has to marry me.

[01:04:44] Now in a lot of countries this happens, not only in Sicily, was this a thing. This is a thing now, in today's time, in certain countries. There was this thing, and I don't know the Italian way forward for it, because I didn't write it down, but it was basically like, if you get sexually [01:05:00] assaulted, you should marry your assaulter, because now you're seen as like a sullied...

[01:05:05] Woman or whatnot, which really sucks right and especially in places where it's more rural and again It's the same in modern day society Those things are more seen more as a shame on the woman like it was her fault So Filippo tells Frank his dad listen You have to make her marry me now because I've done this thing and I'll return her to you.

[01:05:27] So he's like Fine. You can marry my daughter. Franca gets back home. She's probably traumatized. And her dad is Do you want to marry Filippo? And she's Fuck no, I don't want to marry Filippo. He's No problem. I'm not gonna make you marry him. So they trick Filippo. Again, this is the short version.

[01:05:45] They trick Filippo into coming over the house to discuss the marriage plans. He comes over and Franco's dad already has the police there. So they arrest Filippo. Now this is a big deal because in most places at this [01:06:00] time in these rural areas, people weren't doing this. If this happened, the woman would be like, I guess I have to marry this guy.

[01:06:07] Real quick, this

[01:06:08] Melanie: is also the time period is like literally The 1950s,

[01:06:12] Ashley: 1960s. Yes. I forgot to say that. So this is, yeah, this is not 200

[01:06:16] Melanie: years ago. , this is literally like our grandmother's

[01:06:19] Ashley: era. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[01:06:22] Melanie: And or our mother's era. If you're older, like she's, I think Frank Franca is 75

[01:06:27] Ashley: years old now.

[01:06:28] Yeah. This lady is still alive. Yeah. Now, and this, and also at this time, again, it's like 1950s. This In Italy, in the country of Italy, rape was not considered a crime, it was considered like an issue of public morality, almost like walking around naked. That's what I was thinking when I was like, public morality, it's yeah, you probably shouldn't walk around naked, you might not get arrested, but it's just don't do that.

[01:06:54] So that's how it was seen. So she took Filippo to court, which this [01:07:00] was like, a big deal. And even some of the neighbors, Franca's neighbors, They burned down her parents barn, which is messed up. And a lot of them were like, acting shame on her for what she had done. And why didn't she just, why is she making such a big deal about this and everything?

[01:07:16] Oh, and Filippo's lawyers were arguing, Oh no, she agreed to be kidnapped. They actually wanted to go elope. That was the situation, but everybody knew that was a lie, and thank God, because Filippo ended up going to jail for 10 years, thank God. And then, in the meantime, Franca got her life back, she ended up getting married, and she ended up...

[01:07:39] Living a good life. She's still alive. She still lives in Sicily I'm just bringing this up because it actually does have to do with our fairy tale and it also has to do with The strength of these women like and going against the grain and it's very cool that Melanie you study feminism because I feel like this is a very feminist thing.

[01:07:58] Franca is like [01:08:00] an icon, this woman, for having gone through what she went through and then she, then not even like having to deal with her trauma but cultural norms and people shitting on her because she just wasn't going with it. I think it's so awesome, so I just wanted to bring that up, because I was like, usually we only tell stories about ancestors and stuff, but I was like, this woman is really important, and I wanted everyone to know that story yeah.

[01:08:22] It's

[01:08:23] Melanie: a hard story, but it is really amazing that she was this trailblazer, and that she was so brave and courageous at that time. And also St. Agatha, St. Agatha, as you were mentioning earlier, she is the patron saint of sexual assault survivors. And that's part of her story as well, is basically she didn't want to get married, and she was forced to be in a brothel until she was gonna agree to marry this it was like whatever, states person, like some Roman prefector, I don't remember what it was.

[01:08:52] And, or like some other state guy, and she refused, and then they like tried to cut off her, [01:09:00] okay, so trigger warning for assault and stuff. And then they cut off her breasts, and then God healed them, and then like eventually she like died, and whatever, but it was like God, just took her up to, Yeah.

[01:09:13] Whatever. She's now seen as like a patron saint of sexual assault survivors. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder, I don't know. There's not a direct thing between Franca Viola and Sant'Agata, but there's maybe that's been a figure for her. I don't know. Maybe

[01:09:28] Ashley: I don't know but she's a badass Yeah story.

[01:09:31] I was like good for her like and yeah, our family suffered for it But yeah, and that was and okay, I'm not gonna bring up this other part cuz it's gonna go with the story We're gonna tell real quick. Okay, so now we're gonna do our actual story time. So that's That was one story, but it's connected to this one.

[01:09:46] So this is an italian fairy tale. That is pretty cool. It's called canatella so Here's how we start. A long time ago in a land far away in italy there's a princess and her name was canatella. So [01:10:00] she didn't want to get married speaking of not getting married She didn't want to get married She was really into, how dare she be super into healing the sick and like taking care of people and education.

[01:10:10] Oh What kind of woman was she? Her she told her dad like listen I don't want to get married and her dad's like you have to get married for the good of the kingdom And she was like, I really don't want to so then they were arguing right? So her dad's Then if I can find you a husband, what kind of husband do you want?

[01:10:26] And she's bring me a husband with a gold head and gold teeth And the dad is that's impossible. And she's I know. So she's that's my point. I don't want to get married. So then, she's hanging out. So then, she goes on with her life. One day she's in her room, probably, healing somebody or taking care of poor people because she was an amazingly good person.

[01:10:46] And... This one of the servants rocks into her room the servants like, oh my god, can you tell us it's going down outside? She's like what's going on? And she's like there's a dude here asking for your hand and she's like I'm not marrying [01:11:00] anybody unless he's a gold head and gold teeth and the servant's I guess he got you good because he's got a gold head and gold teeth.

[01:11:05] So she goes downstairs Her dad's talking to this guy with a gold head, and she's this is crazy, how does this guy have a gold head and gold teeth? But the dad's talking to him, and then the dad looks at Ken and Tella, and is here's the guy you wanted. And she's I, you can't make me marry this guy.

[01:11:22] And the dad was like no, just, you have to. You promised that you would marry this guy. She's oh my god, fine. They get married that day, because back then, people got married fast. They have the wedding feast. And actually the guy seems pretty nice. So she's I don't this might work out.

[01:11:37] He doesn't seem like the worst person ever So the next day the guy's like we got to go on to My horse and we got I'm gonna take you to my house and now you're gonna be my wife and she's like fine, whatever It's ancient medieval Magical times. This is what we do so they're on the horse and it seems like they're on the horse for hours and then finally Can't tell I was [01:12:00] not trying to be rude because she's a lady and she's very polite.

[01:12:02] She's can I just ask you what we're gonna get there in just a second. My house is right there. So when she looks she sees like a little shack and she's ooh, okay. She's I'm not a snob. I don't care if people have money. I'll make it work, even if this guy lives in a shack, whatever. So they get to this barn shack place, and he pushes her off the horse.

[01:12:22] And now she's She thought maybe he's joking, maybe he's trying to be playful. But she's oh my god, oh that hurt, you pushed me off a horse. That was painful. And he turns and looks at her, and he's not smiling anymore. He's not being nice, he looks cold, like dead eyed. And she's what is happening?

[01:12:40] All of a sudden, he says something in a language she doesn't understand, and his head turns from being gold with his gold teeth, and now it's like he's an old man with like liver spots and like his teeth are all messed up. And she's oh my god, what's going on? And then the guy was like, ha, I tricked you.

[01:12:58] My name is [01:13:00] Fioravante. I am a magician. And she's what? What's happening? And he's a long time ago, I used to own lands, I used to be rich, and then your dad took all my shit. So I took you. And she's oh my god! So now she doesn't know what she's gonna do. And he pushes her into the barn, right?

[01:13:18] And she's in the barn, and she's oh shit, this is so bad. And then, from the hay in the corner of the barn, this weird figure of a man gets up. And it's jaw is half hanging off, and it's eyes are all milky white and weird. And she's oh my god! So there's so much going on. She's what the hell is that?

[01:13:36] And he's that's my zombie servant and you're my zombie servant is gonna watch you and you're gonna stay in this barn and you better not leave because if you do you're not gonna what happens. And she's what is happening? I'm so confused. So then he's Fioravante, that's his name if I didn't mention it before.

[01:13:53] Fioravante is I'm gonna go and come back and I'll be back in seven years. And she's seven years?[01:14:00]

[01:14:02] She's what the hell's going on? He leaves. And, he locks the door. So now, Cannon Tell is freaking out, right? She's I've got to get the fuck out of here. She sees, she's looking around, she can't get out. But she sees, oh, and the first thing she notices is that the zombie servant can't talk.

[01:14:17] She's trying to talk to him. He doesn't talk he just looks and then like he's not really moving very quickly So she's like, all right if I can find a way out I can get away from this guy he's not a fast zombie not like world war z zombies like your average standard zombie like shauna the dead zombie, so she finds a little window above and she's okay If I can get up to that window, it's 10 feet off the ground She gets like a trough from where they're feeding the horses and she climbs up onto the trough She's able to get out the window Once she gets out she slides down and she's okay, I'm free.

[01:14:52] She starts to walk and then she sees Something in the distance. Who is it? It's fucking Fioravante guys. He's [01:15:00] back. He what he tricked her He said he was gonna come back seven years from now, but he's right back he's coming on his cart down the road clickety clack and She's oh shit.

[01:15:08] So she rips apart parts of her dress. She throws it up to try to hook it on something, and climbs back up, scales the window, and gets back in by the time he gets back. So by the time she gets back in, he's just opening the door. So she's got to act like I'm calm, like she's not out of breath or anything.

[01:15:25] Fioravante comes in and he's You didn't try to escape, did you? And she's No, I can't escape. And then guess what guys, the horse can talk. The horse is hell yeah she tried to escape, I was watching her. And she's what the hell is going on, something, now we got a talking horse. Oh my god, so Fioravante, being a piece of crap.

[01:15:46] He beats her up. It's terrible. Poor Canantella, now he, Fervante beat her up, and he's like on, he's next time I'm gonna kill you, you better not try to leave again. Oh god, Canantella is oh god, what am I gonna do? I'm beat [01:16:00] up, I'm so tired, there's a talking horse and a zombie, this is terrible for me.

[01:16:04] For the next couple months, all she can do is eat the oats in the trough. She can't eat, she's exhausted, she doesn't know what to do. The zombie servant's watching her, he's creepy. But it's fine. Finally, one day, she's sitting against the barn, and she's just sad. She wants to go home.

[01:16:19] This is terrible. And she realizes there's some water dripping from the top of the barn. And it's dripping on this one piece of wood, this one area. And she touches the wood, and the wood is super rotted. Soft and she's oh shit. This is my way out So she starts ripping against the wood making sure that the horse isn't watching her because the horse is a tattletale So she's ripping against the wood ripping against the wood and she makes an opening small enough Big enough I should say that she can get out So she wiggles her way out.

[01:16:52] She covers herself with the hay So the horse can't see and now she's out. Thank god. She got out the barn. So she starts running [01:17:00] now literally All around her, behind her, she sees hundreds of these zombies following her. And she's oh shit. So she's running. They're not very fast, like I said. But she's gotta run.

[01:17:14] She's gotta get. And she's also afraid that Fioravanti is gonna come back any minute. She doesn't know. He's been gone for a couple months, but last time he said he was gonna be gone for seven years, he came back the same day. She's running. Running down the road. She's exhausted. She every time she hears something she's running away.

[01:17:29] She's afraid she's running for hours until the point where she literally Collapses and then she starts crawling then as she's crawling on the road She sees this like nice looking family come by there's a guy in a car and he's like ma'am. Can I help you? So at first she's oh my god, this is Fioravante disguised as like a friendly man farmer, and she's like just take me away I get it.

[01:17:56] You want to kill me kill me, but I won't go back to the barn and the guy's [01:18:00] What Are you talking about ma'am? I just want to help you and she's oh just kill me and he's like literally I just want to help you. Are you okay? And she's like she realizes he's not fervente and she's no, i'm not Okay, i'm not okay at all And she gets in the car this guy he's with a woman which is probably his wife And he has two kids in the back and he's like getting my cart and the wife gives her some water that she's got And the dad Where the guy is who are you?

[01:18:25] And she's listen, you're not gonna believe this, but I'm the princess Canantella and he, she's what? Meanwhile, look, Canantella is covered in dirt. She's bleeding like she's a mess. She's I know I don't look like it But I swear I'm the princess Canantella. Can you please take me back to my kingdom?

[01:18:40] I swear to God I'll be so grateful and he's yeah, okay I'll take you so all they ride for a while they take Canantella back to the king Back to the castle they get to the castle and she's wow, you've been so nice to me Thank you so much. And he's like you won't remember but a long time ago [01:19:00] You nursed my kids when they were both sick.

[01:19:02] So I owe you. Thank you so much. I hope everything goes well for you. And she's thanks. So she gets dropped off at the castle. The guards outside were like, Who the hell are you? She's covered in dirt. She looks terrible. And then she's I swear on the Princess Cantella. So they call the head guard, who's been there the longest, and he's looking at her, and he's Oh my god, this is the Princess Canterlot.

[01:19:21] She's probably lost like 40 pounds. She hasn't eaten properly in months. They go call the king. The king's looking at her at first. He's who is this? And he's oh my god. So she tells the king everything. This is what happened. This guy named Fioravante, do you know who he is? Now, when she tells him this story, the king is mad big mad.

[01:19:41] He's I cannot believe this happened. Canantella, go inside. I will not let anybody else come for you. Nothing bad's gonna happen to you while you're here. He tells his guards, everybody around the castle, I want extra protection for her all day and all night. Okay, so that night, Cantella [01:20:00] gets cleaned up.

[01:20:00] She's back in her royal bedroom. She's okay. Okay. I'm here. I'm gonna be alright. She's looking out the window. Just, looking out the window as one does because there's no TVs back here. So she's looking out the window and here she goes seeing this... Black horse and a man on a black horse riding towards the castle and she's Fuuuuuuck.

[01:20:22] She's it's Fear of Latte, he found me! So she's freaking out. But she's but all the guards in the kingdom are literally here right now. So I'll be alright. So then she sees him walk up to the guards. She sees the guards draw their swords and then he pulls out this glowing scroll out of his pocket and he says something like Hamana.

[01:20:41] And then all the guards fall asleep. Everybody falls asleep and she's AHHH! So she starts screaming so she runs out her room and the guards stationed outside her room, sleeping. She can't wake them up. Her maids can't wake them up. She runs into her dad's... She runs into her dad's room. [01:21:00] Her dad is fast asleep.

[01:21:01] Can't wake him up. She's oh shit! So then she turns around, there's Fioravanti standing in the doorway of the room and she's oh my god, and he's Come on, dear. I'm gonna take you home. And she's NEVER! She starts fighting Firavante like with everything she's got because she's not going back to that barn.

[01:21:19] Now, Firavante, he's got her pinned down and she's frig, I'm gonna die now. But then she realized that through all this tussling, the magical scroll is falling out of his pocket. So she's alright, this is what I'm gonna do. Hi yah! So she uses her knee, she kicks it, yeah, she kicks the scroll out of the pocket, and now Fioravante is no, my magic scrolls!

[01:21:42] So he lets her go and he tries to get it, but she's faster than him. Fioravante is an old ass man. So she's faster than him. She gets the scroll, she rips it up real quick, and then After she rips it up, Firavante, he's even angrier, so he grabs her and he throws her to the ground. He's I'm gonna choke you to death now.

[01:21:58] And then what [01:22:00] happens, again, sorry, this is super violent. Then all of a sudden, Canantella sees a knife come between Firavante's two eyes. And it's her dad. He woke up, cause the spell is broken, cause the scroll is all ripped up now. And he stabs him in the head. Okay, he's dead great And he picks her up and he's oh my god, I can't tell her.

[01:22:17] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry I'm, so sorry. I love you so much. I'm never gonna make you marry anybody again, and she's thank god And everyone lived happily ever after now the connection between these two stories is as progressive as these women were right our girl franca before who like was brave enough to accuse her, accuse the guy who abused her, and Cantella is that back in these days The dads in these stories were also super progressive because back in the day They were like if you don't marry this guy, you're gonna shame or the family or if you don't do what you're supposed to do This isn't good.

[01:22:57] You're a woman you're supposed to do this and that and [01:23:00] it was like an example for other people even this fairy tales example like Hey, we need to believe our women when there's when they don't want to do something and we need to not force them to do shit They don't like because bad shit can happen so in Even though this is an old fairy tale It was actually I think the guy who wrote it he wrote it down actually like in the 1800s and for the time it Was super progressive people were like, oh, excuse me.

[01:23:26] It was very controversial and progressive for the time So we love cantella because she's the other thing was cantella And in Franka's case too, both of these two women saved themselves. They didn't wait for some dude to come help them. They both ended up saving themselves in these situations. And just being ultra strong, amazing women.

[01:23:48] So we love them. We love Franka. We love Canantella. And that is their stories for this episode. Yay,

[01:23:57] Melanie: brava!

[01:23:58] Ashley: Yay![01:24:00]

[01:24:01] Melanie: That was really good. Good. I'm

[01:24:03] Ashley: glad. Yeah. That was really cool. Yeah, I was, yes. I was like, oh. I remember years ago I heard this story about Franco Viola, and I was like, damn, this woman really she went through some shit, but she still was like, I'm gonna fight it.

[01:24:15] Like I don't give a shit. I was like, damn. That's awesome. She's

[01:24:19] Melanie: a cool lady. Yeah. And actually the first ever recorded like rape trial. was in Rome for Artemisia Gentileschi, who was a Roman painter. Of the Baroque era she was like in the Caravaggio school and now her paintings are famous, but she was again trigger warning she was assaulted by a student of her dad's because her dad was a painter Horatio Gentileschi And she was like a young painter young woman.

[01:24:47] And she was assaulted by one of these students and she had a trial in Rome and I think it was the 1600s. And so there had never been like a trial before and it wasn't even like you covered, like it wasn't [01:25:00] even about her. Yeah. So she was born in 1593 and lived in like the 1600s.

[01:25:04] But it was a the offense that could be tried in court was that the, Assaulter had damaged her the father's

[01:25:15] Ashley: property. Basically. Yeah, it's wild. Yeah

[01:25:18] Melanie: About what he did to her it was like that he damaged the father's property But her father was really supportive of her also progressive for the 1600s and she surpassed him in skill Like he was a renowned painter And she surpassed him in skill and they painted some things together and, so that was also like an ancestor to

[01:25:39] Ashley: Santa Viola.

[01:25:40] Oh, thank you for telling us about that. Yeah, I'm gonna put her in the show notes too. I'll put that in there so that. Yeah, and you can like Google like

[01:25:47] Melanie: Artemisia Gentileschi because then she basically... got commissioned to do a lot of paintings of biblical stories where a man kills where a woman kills a man.

[01:25:56] And so there's a lot of conjecture of did she paint these things [01:26:00] because of her experience or did people pigeonhole her into these stories because of her experience? But Judith slaying Holofernes there's many Versions of this and there's like the Caravaggio ones and whatever and then she painted a few of them And then also like Susanna and the elders is one of her other paintings where it's like this woman Susanna and all these like old men who are trying to shame her and Like fuck with her and she's shut the fuck up Jail and Sisera where like It's another one of these biblical stories where like a woman is like driving like an iron like nail through this guy's neck.

[01:26:37] I don't know, I forget all the stories of like why, but there's like these biblical stories of what's going on. So yeah, it's also, yeah, really cool kind of ancestor in that vein as well.

[01:26:47] Ashley: That's awesome! Yay! Thank you so much, Melanie, for being here with us and if you want to just let us know where we can find you on the internet so people can see all your awesome [01:27:00] content.

[01:27:00] Melanie: Thank you, yes! Oh, thank you so much for having me, this is really beautiful and special, and... I feel so touched that you care. Yeah! I love it! Or just care at all about, anything like Sicilian history and the mythology. It's awesome! And beliefs and fun traditions. And I could go on forever.

[01:27:17] There's so many things. But yeah, I just really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Absolutely! And on Instagram. Instagram. I'm Melanie Jade six and also on Tik Tok the same. I post more Tik Tok stuff is more like with my non new and hijinks, like with my family and like Sicilian language versus Italian language stuff.

[01:27:38] And then more of the like folk traditions and folk magic and folk Catholicism and all of that is more so on my Instagram. But yeah, those are some places. I'm on Threads, but I don't know what to do with it yet, the same. You can find me there. It's totally unh I don't know, I'm mostly just reposting American Girl's All.

[01:27:57] Ashley: Threads. I don't know. [01:28:00] Oh god. I don't know, I feel like we probably follow the same people. Yeah. American Girl Adults. What are you guys doing with that now? Yeah, you're all about it. Yeah. Oh, okay. Thank you so much. And thank you everybody for listening. Again, this is Dine with the Divine. You can like us on Instagram on Facebook, and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to us if you like it.

[01:28:25] And if you want to follow me, Ashley, I'm SankofaHS at S A N K, how do I spell it? S A N K O F A H S. Yeah and Seiko Melee Sanctuary on Facebook. Yeah, I hope everybody has a great week. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. Bye! Bye!