What it Means to be a Witch with Judika Illes

Judika

===

[00:00:00] Ashley: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dine with the Divine. I'm your host, Ashley, and together we'll be exploring the magical, the mystical, and everything in between. On today's episode, we'll just be talking a lot about witchy stuff. Yay! Okay I hope everyone is having a great week, and if you're not, I really hope it gets better soon.

[00:00:19] We have a fantastic guest, somebody that I actually mention constantly on this podcast because I use her books for all my references. I'm so fangirling a little bit. So we have the fantastic and wonderful Judica Illes. So Judica Illes is a lifelong student lover and practitioner of the magical arts.

[00:00:41] She's the author of numerous books devoted to spells, spirits, and witchcraft, including the best selling Encyclopedia of 5, 000 Spells and the Encyclopedia of Spirits, as well as Pure Magic, Daily Magic, and the Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and the Encyclopedia of Mystics, Saints, and Sages. [00:01:00] magic when you need it, and the Wiser Field Guide to Witches.

[00:01:04] Judica is the editor and curator of two books, a mystical fiction, the Wiser Book of the Fantastic Forgotten, and the Wiser Book of Occult Detectives. A certified aromatherapist, she has been a professional tarot card reader for over three decades. A native New Yorker, Judica teaches in U. S. and internationally, live and virtually.

[00:01:28] Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to have you here. How are you? Good,

[00:01:32] Judika: thank you so much for having me. No

[00:01:35] Ashley: problem. Oh my gosh, I literally mention you on almost every single podcast because I use the Encyclopedia of Spirits for everything. Literally, it's like my first go to reference for everything.

[00:01:47] Yes, and I just love it. It's so great. I've learned so much and things I never knew. It's really cool. It's like one of the best reference books I have. I absolutely adore. That's what

[00:01:57] Judika: I wanted it to be. My books I'm a [00:02:00] practical person and I wanted people to be able to use my books.

[00:02:04] Because a lot of books, people buy them and they don't read them or they put them on the shelf or the coffee table. And I really wanted, it makes me happy when people tell me they use them as references or they show me the books and they're like all dog eared and beaten up and oil stains.

[00:02:19] I love that. It makes me so happy. Oh, good.

[00:02:21] Ashley: I'm so happy. Okay, great. Oh my gosh. Okay. So my I'm literally fangirling because I just like I have so okay. I have too many of your books. Okay

[00:02:41] Okay, so okay my first question I wanted to ask you I ask everybody so how did your kind of spiritual How did your spiritual journey begin?

[00:02:51] Judika: People ask me these questions all the time. It is probably the most popular question. And I don't have a good I wish I [00:03:00] had a clever answer or, I had this experience.

[00:03:04] But I really just think I came this way. I have always been, I'm going to close everything, but us, so that we don't have... Those little noises. I just, it's something that has always interested me. I've just been interested in witchcraft and spells and spirits and, the afterlife and past lives.

[00:03:28] And it's just, I come from a family. I wouldn't say they were practitioners, but they had interest. And I was exposed to. Different topics. I have a sister who's much older than I am. And when she, when I was starting first grade, my sister was starting college. And her she was going to college around the corner from the old Samuel Weiser bookstore.

[00:03:57] And she would bring home books on [00:04:00] astrology and numerology. And I learned to read very young because my mother taught herself English by teaching me how to read. And no one ever stopped me from reading anything. They might not have explained it to me, but they didn't stop it either. They didn't censor me.

[00:04:16] So it was just something that I was always interested in. And it's, it's my true love. It's a lot of years later and I'm still interested.

[00:04:25] Ashley: Yes. Ah, I know. And you like, what I like is even with the encyclopedia of spells and the one about saints and sages, you dig into everywhere, every culture and every different aspect in the world, you dig into represent. Yeah, exactly.

[00:04:44] Judika: Because this is shared, these are shared human topics. I think spirituality and witchcraft. We think about our ancestors, and we're thinking about somebody a hundred years ago, okay, maybe [00:05:00] you didn't know them, but maybe you think your grandparents know them, but there are, there were humans thousands of years ago, and these topics, I think if, we could time travel back, when you were dumped thousands of years ago, anywhere, you could talk about ghosts, you could talk about, that's just a common human thing, you can talk every culture's got some kind of a witch, you Yeah, all different kinds, positive or negative, but they've got it and they understand, it might be suppressed.

[00:05:33] It might be rejected, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Yes. And I know for myself that I, coming up as a teenager, I, the books that I read in the 70s and the 80s, I could tell I knew it wasn't meant badly, that the author could not conceive that someone like me was reading their book.

[00:05:57] They were writing for a very specific audience, [00:06:00] for people just like them. And I never want to make people feel like that with my books. It's for all of us. Yeah,

[00:06:08] Ashley: that's part of the reason I just enjoy learning about all these different cultures. Because you get a lot, and this is... You get a lot of witchcraft books, right even now and it's better now but seeing even that I was I know Yeah, and everything's just this is for this and this is for that and that's great And I love the knowledge and nothing's wrong with it But like I like to know the origin of this like where did this come from, because there's certain things that like in we talked about A bunch of different episodes about, the transatlantic slave trade that was hoodoo. Like the people in from Central or Western Africa had to come to the United States and figure out from their own knowledge and from indigenous people what they could use that was similar to where they came from.

[00:06:55] You know what I mean? There's not just one like for cleansing. We don't only have to use [00:07:00] sage. There's a million different herbs in the world that I

[00:07:04] Judika: mean, beyond that, I also think if you're going to do cleansing, it's you can't keep using the same thing every time because it's like those, antibiotic resistant, you've got to switch it out a little bit because all, what about the stuff that sage doesn't work on?

[00:07:20] And maybe you need to. You need to try something else, too. Exactly. But yeah, I know. I'm shocked sometimes by the stuff that I read in books. People just, our pre Christian ancestors, some people, pre Christian ancestors assumes you have Christian ancestors, but not everybody in the world has Christian ancestors.

[00:07:37] Exactly. Or our European ancestors not all of us have European ancestors. Or, or we have, our ancestry goes back thousands of years. When I started doing my genealogy, I was shocked by what I found. I think that's, in a good way. I was happy.

[00:07:52] But it was surprising. There were things that I was not, there were things I was expecting and there were things I was not expecting. And I think that's true for [00:08:00] everyone. If you can go back far enough, you will. I think all of us are just interesting. We're interesting people.

[00:08:09] And we should embrace that our personal diversity.

[00:08:14] Ashley: Absolutely. Oh my God. And that's why it's so important for us to reach into each other's cultures to learn. Because there's so much that we can all learn from each other. Like you said, a lot of people, they look into their background and they're like, Huh, what?

[00:08:30] I didn't know that this was part of it. And then also what, especially I think in like the spiritual world. It can become problematic, but I feel very much that there's ways that we can do it without it being a problem. You can look at other people's cultures and learn something from it and not and be like, wow, that's cool.

[00:08:48] And maybe I can incorporate this into my practice, but appreciate it and not just say I did it and I'm the one who invented it. Exactly. I invented it. But I think that's why it's so important to [00:09:00] learn from everybody else. Cause I'm not gonna lie, hot, this is not a hot take, the sage thing bothers me, a lot.

[00:09:08] It bothers me, cause I'm just like, there's like a, first of all, rosemary's cheaper, like it just is. Yeah, you can grow it, like in your deck, wherever you live.

[00:09:17] Judika: There's a reason it's so expensive, and one of the problems with everybody's sage, and people just say I'm gonna sage it, like that's a euphemism for cleansing.

[00:09:26] Yeah, but it's become so expensive and it's poached the And the indigenous people can't they don't have access to it. Exactly. They can't afford it. So that's wrong. It's

[00:09:39] Ashley: terrible I'm like, yeah, and honestly if you really I would say look sometimes You just do stuff on a real budget if you want to really cleanse yourself your house You could literally just walk around With whatever like say it was like a white candle or something And just go into every room and be like spirits I [00:10:00] need you to take any negative stuff out.

[00:10:01] You don't need a lot of stuff like People will be like I heard that you should use it. And there's nothing wrong with using those things. Oh, no, intention, yeah, intention is 99 percent of practice. At least in my opinion I make,

[00:10:14] Judika: My own four thieves vinegar and the ingredients come from the supermarket.

[00:10:18] And you can, I just buy cooking red wine vinegar. It's not expensive vinegar and herbs. And when I make it before I bottle it. As the pot is steaming, I walk it through the house and I use I use the steam to cleanse and it's an herbal vinegar garlic steam and it's, I find it very effective and, I think you can make a bottle, it's, you can probably make it for less than five dollars, but definitely less than ten dollars.

[00:10:47] Yeah.

[00:10:48] Ashley: Yeah, exactly. It's and it's all about You can do whatever recipe that you like, but it's about It doesn't mean you have to do the specific thing And then also if you do the specific thing, you should know [00:11:00] somewhat which come from it's the same way Like when I used to use I used to use palo santo like a lot Yeah.

[00:11:05] Like I used to love Paul and then I found out oh, this is not good for the environment that I'm using this. So I was like, okay, I'm not use that anymore. Do I love the way it smells? Absolutely. But yeah. I'm only getting it like from ethical places if I even do anymore, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:19] Judika: No, I know.

[00:11:20] I just, it's funny that you said Rosemary, because I just finished editing. This it's a combination memoir. Biography of Scott Cunningham by his sister. Yeah. Christine Cunningham. Ashworth. And Scott used Rosemary for everything. Okay. It was the name of their mother. Oh! It had that extra layer of protection, yes. And that is love, plus the power of the plant,

[00:11:46] Ashley: yes. Scott Cunningham's The Magical Herb Books. Yeah. And the one about incense and different baths and stuff. Those are two of my first Yeah, real spiritual books that I remember buying from like Barnes Noble. I [00:12:00] love those books.

[00:12:00] They've been beaten I had to buy a second copy at one point because I let my friend borrow it once and she never returned it I lost my mind. I was so mad about it. I'm no longer friends with this person I

[00:12:11] Judika: don't, sometimes I'll give people books. I don't lend out books. It's just a, they

[00:12:16] Ashley: never come back So after that, I think I've lent out two or three books in my life and I was like, I'm not doing it anymore yeah, but I had to buy another copy, so it's fine.

[00:12:24] I still have it. Thank God, because I reference it a lot, too. It's a really good reference book. Oh, okay. Also, okay, I wanted to ask you, were you, have you always been a writer? Since you were young, did you always just love writing, or was that something that you found that you were really good at?

[00:12:40] Judika: Writing is my skilled labor. I love researching. I love that. That's a very spiritual thing that digging, you just start digging and you see what you go down a rabbit hole and what you find. Writing is like a necessary evil. Dorothy Parker said I hate writing. I love having written.

[00:12:59] I [00:13:00] can't, it is my skilled labor. Like when I've needed it. Before I was a published author, I wrote people's websites. I wrote a funeral services website. Some people like your skilled labors, I don't know, you can, cut hair or you can sew. I can't do either of those particularly well, but I can write.

[00:13:26] Ashley: Oh my gosh, I know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say, this is part of the reason I do this podcast, I love to research stuff, like I, yeah, I go down rabbit holes, and people in my life who like know me well, just know that I love to just, I'll find out one random fact, and within three days, I'll know so much about it, and you'll be so sick of me talking about it.

[00:13:43] Yeah, it's so exciting.

[00:13:45] Judika: And I like talking to people and learning from people. Yeah. I like the knowledge aspect of it. But writing is hard

[00:13:53] Ashley: work. Yeah. It's like serious business. Yeah. It is. Yeah!

[00:13:59] Judika: You [00:14:00] sit in your room all by yourself. You like have this blank screen that you have to, the first draft is never good.

[00:14:09] It's just, but you have to have the first draft because you can't write the second draft until you've written the first draft. Yes! Yes! I don't love it, but I do it.

[00:14:20] Ashley: Yes! I just want to, off the cuff, this just came in my head, do you have any advice for people who are like, they really want to write, but they don't know where to start?

[00:14:31] Do you have a first step that, a place they should start? They know they want to write about something. Yeah,

[00:14:37] Judika: I'll tell you two different things. One is writing for the sake of writing, and one is writing for the sake of being published. Okay. They're not the same. Oh, okay. I would never, I know this for a fact.

[00:14:48] I would never finish anything unless I have a deadline. Okay. And I say that because I have books that I have been working on for decades, because for one reason or another, no one has wanted to publish them. But I love them. And [00:15:00] so I just keep researching and adding to them. Yeah. As opposed to, when you have a book contract, they say, Oh, you have to submit the first draft by the state.

[00:15:10] And then, you have a little time to tweak it. And then there's a point where it goes, it was like giving birth to a baby. When you're, when that baby is in your womb, you have control, you can eat well and take care of yourself or you can not, you can do these things that will impact.

[00:15:27] But once that baby is, and of course, babies are helpless. Somebody has to take care of the baby. But once that child is out in the world, it's its own, it's its own person. Yeah. That's going to grow up and make decisions that you may or may not like. Yeah. And find itself in places. And when you write a book, you don't know where that book is going to go.

[00:15:48] Books go internationally now. Yeah. You don't know where it's going to go. You don't know who's going to read it. You don't really know. You can't. It's that's why you have to write clearly. Because... [00:16:00] You don't know how people will interpret what you write. So you want to write as clearly as possible.

[00:16:05] My advice is to do it. That is my first advice, just do it because It's like that first draft that's never good, that takes you to the second draft. The best sentences will always be the ones that you wake up with. You're driving, you're at a stop sign, and this great sentence comes, and then the light changes and you gotta go, and you can never remember, but it was brilliant.

[00:16:27] Or you wake up at four in the morning, and it's such a brilliant sentence, and you're convinced you'll remember in the morning. And you don't. Yeah. You just agonize in your head about, oh, that was great, doesn't matter, put it on paper, or, whether it's on paper, it's, a digital copy just do it.

[00:16:46] And my best advice to someone who wants to write is do it every day, take 10 minutes or whatever it is you can, and just do it. And if you don't know what you want to write about, then just type something, [00:17:00] your name. Or you know that scene in The Shining, where, in the movie, where the Jack Nicholson character, the wife sees all he's been typing is all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy or something.

[00:17:14] Even that, even if you're just typing something, eventually something, it's almost like automatic writing, eventually something else will emerge. Do it. Like even if you can't think of something to write, just write down. Oh, I can't think of something to write. What should I write about? Oh, maybe I should write about this.

[00:17:33] Something will come and just do it. You don't, and you don't have to tell everything you know. That was really important for me because I like to be thorough. As you can see, I write these big books. I like to be detailed. I like to be thorough, but you don't have to write everything you know. You can keep things to yourself.

[00:17:53] I You're not obligated to share all your knowledge, you can choose, but just [00:18:00] do it. If you are writing fiction, there's probably more money in fiction than in non fiction. Yeah. If you're writing fiction, you probably could use an agent. Because because they're going to shepherd you through the contract process, maybe they'll get you some more money.

[00:18:19] They'll make sure that you're not signing away any rights that you should not be signing away. Nonfiction, especially metaphysical nonfiction, there's not a ton of money in it. do not have agents. You don't have to finish the whole book to get published. I'm an editor for Weiser books, and that's the publisher I know best.

[00:18:41] But I've published for a lot of other Publishers don't show anybody your entire manuscript. I'm not talking about your significant other or your mom or your kid, it's okay, but don't show anybody your entire manuscript until you have a contract in a check. People are [00:19:00] terrible.

[00:19:01] Ashley: Okay. Yeah, I've heard that advice before.

[00:19:04] Yeah.

[00:19:05] Judika: Usually you need to give a table of contents or an outline. Wiser Books wants two chapters. I've never had to give more than two chapters with other publishers. I believe Llewellyn at least used to want three chapters, but still, it's not a whole book. You want to give them an introduction so the publisher knows what you want to write about and understands.

[00:19:29] Yeah, because it's bad if they think you're writing about something and you think you're writing about something different. Yeah, that's not a healthy relationship. But do it. Yeah. And don't wait, there's, and even if there's like other books on your title, there's always room for another, there's room for another Tarot book, there's room for another Spell book.

[00:19:52] What do you have to say that other people haven't said yet? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:58] Ashley: Thank you. Because I know [00:20:00] there's a lot of, we have a lot of, we try to, I try to have a lot of authors here. And I know a lot of people say, they want to write a book and they don't know where to start. So thank you for that.

[00:20:09] That really is very helpful. I did,

[00:20:11] Judika: I did an event years ago at a store out in Port Jefferson, Long Island. And it was, it's a Envision Crystal. And I haven't been there, maybe they've expanded. But at that time, it was just space wise, it was a really little store. And we didn't have room for I was going to give a talk at a book signing, there was no room, so I think we traded a book to the local library, the public library.

[00:20:34] And they gave us a room to do, this talk in. And I had, I don't remember what I planned to speak about, but I had prepared it. And then when I got there, the only thing anybody wanted to talk about was how do they get published. So that's what we talked about.

[00:20:49] Ashley: Yeah!

[00:20:53] Judika: Nice! A lot of people know how movies are made and they know how TV shows are made, but they don't know how [00:21:00] books are made. Yeah, that's not really common knowledge.

[00:21:04] Ashley: No, because okay, this is so embarrassing But my only knowledge of book being made is always from like a Lifetime movie where like the person is a writer I'm like, they're a very fancy writer and their Agents always calling them yelling at them because they haven't like book in like it is all I know about books And I used to have a friend who worked for a publisher, but I didn't really understand it at all when he explained it.

[00:21:29] So yes, having books and I know there's a lot of people like who do self publishing or yeah. Or like you were saying,

[00:21:39] Judika: yeah, there's no stigma to it anymore. It used to be like, like 70s, 80s it was the vanity press. And if you were publishing yourself, it was cause nobody else would publish you.

[00:21:49] But it's not like that anymore. It's so much easy. You can do it through creative space or Amazon. They'll give you a template. There are [00:22:00] pros and cons. If you self publish, you have complete control. You can do, because publishing of the publisher is collaborative. You have to enjoy that because there, there is an editor and there are art directors and everybody has a vision for your book and you have to work together.

[00:22:20] And if you are really... You have something in your head, and you really want to do it this way, then self publishing may be the way to go. But, self publishing, you have to pay for everything yourself. Yeah. That's the flip side. If you go with a publisher, you don't have to pay for anything. Yeah. That is, if a publisher comes to you and tries to charge you like a submission fee, Oh, you need to give us whatever, 100, so we'll, so we'll look at your manuscript you should run, that is totally unethical.

[00:22:51] It you do not with a traditional publisher, the only thing you might have to pay for are if you want to [00:23:00] quote from another book or you want an illustration and the owner of that, or the copywriter of that book, or the illustrator wants a per, they want a permissions fee. . But you don't you cannot use the quote.

[00:23:18] Yeah. There's no, that, that's a choice thing. The publisher pays for everything. They pay you. Interesting.

[00:23:25] Ashley: Now I feel like we all are better people for knowing all this information. Yeah. I think that's so helpful. A lot of people want to read books, so I think this is great.

[00:23:35] Thank you for sharing that. And

[00:23:36] Judika: they should do it. They should do it. We need more books. Yes. More books. Judica says write your book. Write your book.

[00:23:43] Ashley: Write your book. Oh, gosh. Yay. Okay. Now we're gonna go to our dish of the week. This is a very random thing It popped into my head the other day. About what we're gonna talk about I don't know why so I was looking up like witchy stuff and [00:24:00] I was like what's Okay, so we know we all know that like witches and witchy people love an herb Oh, yeah.

[00:24:06] Yeah, we love herbs. I'm like, okay which, let's talk about an herb. We haven't done that in a long time. And for some reason, I started looking at wormwood.

[00:24:15] Judika: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I

[00:24:17] Ashley: grew it.

[00:24:18] Judika: Oh, really? Yeah. You can, it's easy to grow. I grew it as a potted plant.

[00:24:23] Ashley: Okay. Yeah. People like when you, when I think of wormwood actually the first thing that comes to mind is when I was in college.

[00:24:30] My roommate's boyfriend at the time decided that he was going to try to make absinthe. So he bought a bunch of wormwood and used used, I think it was vodka or something. Yeah. And he just like mixed it in and it was terrible. Yeah.

[00:24:45] Judika: Yeah.

[00:24:46] Ashley: We did not hallucinate as we were all told we were supposed to.

[00:24:52] Judika: You're looking for Victoria and you just get a headache, yeah. Yeah, we were all

[00:24:55] Ashley: just ugh, this is disgusting. Yeah. So I think we all just went, [00:25:00] we all just went to bed after that. So

[00:25:01] Judika: it was really gross. You ever heard of Pernod? It's a French liqueur, Pernod.

[00:25:06] Ashley: I've heard of Pernod, yes.

[00:25:08] Judika: Pernod is when absinthe became illegal. It's basically... Because absent the drink as it was originally done, and it's not illegal anymore, so you can get some . But it's a blend of many herbs. It's not just warm wood. 'cause wormwood is, doesn't taste very good. . So you have to blend it with other things.

[00:25:31] And the puru is everything but the wormwood because when Oh yeah. So supposedly it tastes pretty similar and you can cook with it. It's like good with like seafood things. It's supposed to taste relatively like what absinthe used to taste like, but you can buy it now, but you have to taste them because different manufacturers make different blends.

[00:25:54] Some of them are better than others. Okay.

[00:25:58] Ashley: Okay. You heard it here first,

[00:25:59] Judika: [00:26:00] folks. But I like the herb itself, the Wormwood herb, not as not just as a potion ingredient, but because it's extremely protective. Yeah, you put it under your pillow. If you have nightmares, it guards you and it's pretty.

[00:26:14] It's pretty leaves. I like that whole Artemisia family of plants. Yeah. Wormwood, and mugwort, and tarragon.

[00:26:21] Ashley: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought, because I was reading about wormwood, obviously, and then it said, oh, it tastes, it's a little licorice kind of taste. And I was like, oh tarragon, I don't know how to actually what to cook tarragon with, but I grow it every single year.

[00:26:34] It's in a lot

[00:26:35] Judika: of southern French recipes. Okay. They'll put it in fish soups

[00:26:40] Ashley: or,

[00:26:42] Judika: Now I'm not remembering. That's

[00:26:48] okay. Years ago, when I used to work in New York, decades ago, I worked near a French deli. And they would put tarragon into like salads, tuna salads and it [00:27:00] was good, but I think it's the best tasting of the Artemisia's because Wormwood is, the bitter herb from the book of revelation.

[00:27:11] It's super bitter. It's almost inedible. If you taste like a leaf, it's not yummy.

[00:27:20] Not quite as extreme, but it's very bitter. Yeah, I don't do you remember like in the book of revelation the wormwood star goes into the waters and then the waters all become bitter Yes,

[00:27:33] Ashley: yes. Okay. I didn't really I didn't make that connection before. Okay. No, I know

[00:27:38] Judika: that's the same wormwood

[00:27:40] Ashley: Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:27:43] Okay, and you know what you speak about like it's in the same family like with mugwort I'll I've drank like I've drank my English is not that good today, but I've had my word tea and like I've drank [00:28:00] again. I had it for like the effect of it, like feeling yeah.

[00:28:05] Judika: But peppermint, you have to put a lot of mint into it because

[00:28:07] Ashley: I don't like it.

[00:28:09] It's not good. And I remember years ago because of I was so obsessed with The Scott Cunningham books and it was like, rose can give you psychic dreams and stuff. So I remember getting roses, drying out the petals, and drinking rose tea. And that also was terrible. I was like, ugh!

[00:28:25] Judika: They all have been invented.

[00:28:27] I used to, years ago, I, cause I'm old. Oh, everything's years ago. I used to work for what was then called the Oh, the Australasian College of Herbalism. And I taught the aromatherapy course, the one on one course, and the way they did that course, and you can do this for yourself at home, is the course consisted of 40 essential oils, because aromatherapy is the, the ritual therapeutic use of essential [00:29:00] oils, which are plant extracts.

[00:29:03] You would sniff, you would essentially get to know each of the oils one by one. You would dip a, like a perfume stick into the bottle, and you would smell it, and then you'd smell it again in five minutes, and then in ten minutes, and then in an hour. What does it smell like in six hours? Can you still smell it tomorrow?

[00:29:21] You write down your notes and your reaction to it, and you send it to the teacher. And one of, they don't do it anymore, but one of the oils was essential oil of garlic. Which is, yeah, the essential oil, oh my god, it has such a strong smell. I like garlic, I like to cook with garlic. But, it is pungent.

[00:29:42] It is not, I try to deworm my dog with it once. I put one drop, one drop on like his dog food. And he didn't touch it. He walked out of the room. He's no thank you. It was really strong. I, it [00:30:00] never touched me. But that day, every time I walked into a room, people would leave.

[00:30:06] People would say, Oh, this thing smells terrible and they would walk out of the room. It never even actually touched me. That's how strong it is. And so I would know, people would send me their, it was like a correspondence course, they would send me their lessons. And then they would start talking about the garlic.

[00:30:20] Oh yes, it was a little strong. It was, it's just, and I knew they never opened that bottle. I knew they never opened that bottle. So it's like mugwort and wormwood. If you tell me, Oh yes, it tasted okay. It's yeah, . He did not drink that . It does not taste okay. .

[00:30:40] Ashley: Oh gosh. Speaking of Dewormers wormwood actually gets its name from being historically a dewormer.

[00:30:46] So I was like, oh, funny you brought that up.

[00:30:48] Judika: Yeah. Not really. Yeah. Yeah. All mug, war two. It's all they were used to get rid of Fermin.

[00:30:54] Ashley: Yes, and in early German medical texts, it's been noted that it was supposed to [00:31:00] help get rid of intestinal worms. Yeah. Yeah, but people It's bad for my dog.

[00:31:04] Judika: But yeah,

[00:31:08] Ashley: but and now that they said they said modern research has confirmed that's 100 percent correct. Like it did work. So people did use it for that. Yeah,

[00:31:17] Judika: definitely. I think that we're all we have a tendency to act like we're the only smart generation or Oh, yes, we know, whatever.

[00:31:25] But we're all here because our ancestors 10, 000 years ago, kept us alive. And, they weren't running to Duane Reade or CVS, they had to know there had to be someone there who knew, I always think those are the original witches. The people who like like the original, the people who, created hoodoo needed it.

[00:31:48] We needed it. And they went, and people were. Migrating somewhere, by choice or not by choice, and you would encounter plants and you needed to know what is [00:32:00] going to kill you and what is going to heal you. Yes. What can you eat? And what can poison an enemy with?

[00:32:05] Exactly. What's, what's going to get rid of the worms? You have to know this.

[00:32:12] Ashley: Yes, exactly. And you think of places like, I always think of places like The Amazon or like different place Australia. They have animals that excrete Neurotoxins that the people back then knew and they were using like in certain parts of the Amazons.

[00:32:28] There's that frog I forget the name of the frog but it had it excretes like this Neurotoxin on its skin. So the when they were having issues and they were using arrows They would take their arrows and rub it on the skin of the frog And then they would shoot the arrows and kill people. So they know what was going on.

[00:32:46] Like,

[00:32:48] Judika: Yeah. And they, not only did they know what was going on, they knew how to extract it.

[00:32:53] Ashley: Yes. Without dying. Yes. They weren't, yeah, they weren't necessarily, they were pretty [00:33:00] smart ancestors.

[00:33:02] Judika: I'm pretty sure they yeah, they could do, look at all those, I'm fascinated by those like those edifices or buildings where It's the summer solstice and the light comes in through here.

[00:33:15] Yes. It's perfect. And they're so old. I know. And they had that mathematical knowledge and astronomical knowledge. They knew things, I think, that have been so lost.

[00:33:28] Ashley: Yes. It's so I forget now off the top of my head, but I think the Aztec calendar was like literally off by I think a day or two.

[00:33:37] And then. The Babylonian time system was off by one, one thousandth of a second. Isn't that incredible? Yeah, it's just, you're just like, wow these people were so smart with way less technology than we have now, and they just knew what to do. It's amazing.

[00:33:59] Judika: I [00:34:00] saw now if you want to cast your chart I, I go to a website and I plug in the numbers and I get a chart.

[00:34:08] I saw my astrologer. I saw him do it in his head. Yeah. Very few people can do that anymore. Yeah,

[00:34:16] Ashley: exactly. Exactly. That is even when I I love Moana. I love that movie. Even the fact that these different groups of Polynesian people were navigating the Pacific Ocean.

[00:34:29] Judika: Isn't that crazy? To go from Tahiti to Hawaii and not get lost in the middle of this world. Yeah.

[00:34:38] Ashley: The ocean, and I don't, I can't remember exactly the route, but there's an area, I think it's, they call it Point Nemo. Point Nemo is the point in the world that is farthest away from any land.

[00:34:52] And it's out there in the Pacific Ocean, and I'm sure these people were going through it or near it, and they were [00:35:00] just, okay they were just like, oh, we're just gonna use the stars to navigate millions of miles of ocean, not land, ocean, and they just figured it out, and like, when you think about it, you're like, I remember when I had heard of this before, but when I saw it in Moana, Not that I didn't believe it.

[00:35:16] I knew it was true, but I was like, let me investigate this and the more I read I was like, wow, these Polynesian people were amazing It's so cool that they were able to do this Thousands of years ago and they just figured it out and then made a whole settlements all over

[00:35:31] Judika: these islands they're all it's astronomical You know by the stars, but also the legends that the shark brothers tell them And that's you know I think it's true.

[00:35:46] It's so cool. How else could they do it? Yeah. Because the stars are great at night. You could get really lost in the daytime. Yeah.

[00:35:57] Ashley: That's why earlier we talked about every culture has [00:36:00] its ghosts and stuff. That's why I'm like, When I was young, I used to think to myself it, some of this has to be true.

[00:36:06] It's totally fine if, you probably are not listening to this podcast if you don't believe any of that's true. But I always think to myself, I'm like, every single culture in the world cannot be wrong. We can all not have been like, yeah, sometimes I just see spirits of dead people, and and we're all lost it, or we were all eating ergot poisoning.

[00:36:22] It can't be.

[00:36:25] Judika: No. Yeah. No. And the whole Urgot theory of Salem, people act like Salem is the witch trials at Salem were some freak occurrence. They weren't even the first witch trials in the colonies. Yeah. There have been witch trials since ancient Rome. It's not all, and they knew how to use, Urgot, there's in my book, Encyclopedia Witchcraft, there's a section on Urgot.

[00:36:50] They knew how to remove it, and they also, midwives used it therapeutically. It's not okay, in Salem you had a bunch of Puritans who had cut themselves off [00:37:00] from this stuff. But, it's not the only witch trial, it's not the only case of a bunch of girls saying, Oh yes, this, so and a specter came to me and stabbed me with a pen.

[00:37:15] We want scientific explanations sometimes for things that aren't scientific.

[00:37:21] Ashley: Yeah, exactly. And, you know what, I'm gonna, so I'm gonna put my article on Wyrmwood because we're gonna move on to our next section because everything you're saying is going into that. I'm like, you know what? Let's just go to the next section.

[00:37:35] So I'm gonna do my plug then we'll start talking about my next thing. If you enjoy this show keep listening to it, obviously and you can follow me on all of the socials. We're Dying With The Divine on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. And if you really enjoy the show, please give us a rating. It helps a lot.

[00:37:53] Or a five star, yeah, five star rating or review, both help on Spotify, Apple podcast and [00:38:00] wherever you listen if you're able to give me a rating. If you want to give me a little tip, a little money or you can, you don't have to there's a link in the show notes. And if you have any suggestions for episodes, questions, comments, please dimewithadevinepod at gmail.

[00:38:14] com. Okay. So now we're going to go to our tea time. So tea time is when we learn something, but today we're doing a little different because We have Judica here and she's written so many books about witchy stuff. So we're getting into just like what does it mean to be a witch and like a little bit of what that means here globally in our modern times.

[00:38:33] So the first thing I'll say about it is we've just gone over this. We talked about how like in every culture we have our different spiritual traditions, right? And that all comes from, I always think the first thing I think of is since I'm a nurse. It's Maslow Hierarchy of Needs. That's how it starts, right?

[00:38:52] Because once people, yeah, once Neanderthals turned into Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens were like, okay, [00:39:00] we've got this food thing down. We've got this shelter thing down. We figured that out. Now we can think about the world and what it means. And that's when people started having spiritual traditions.

[00:39:12] That's when, and they also when people started having art, music, entertainment, all that stuff, because they had a society that ran. So now that their basic needs are taken care of, they can start doing all this other stuff. And we've seen it all over the world, starting, Mesopotamia, they had their own spiritual rituals that people still, in some, people still research that today, in every single place in Europe, every single place in the world.

[00:39:34] Every single place in the world, yeah. Yeah, spiritual tradition. And then, you were just talking about witch trials we get to Europe in the mid ages, middle, medieval ages, medieval times, I should say. I'm trying, I'm mixing up all my words. To say dark ages slash middle ages, that's what I was trying to say.

[00:39:55] Sorry everybody. I'm punchy. At this time we have people, [00:40:00] especially you think of the Inquisition. I feel like that's the biggest witch trial that everybody thinks of. I don't know, what do you think?

[00:40:08] Judika: That's always thing is what do people think of when they think of which trials and which panic, what we think of when we have a culture that is just terrified of

[00:40:27] spiritual power, or the unexplained or women if there are control issues, there is the first I think, documented which panic. And a lot of this is in my book, Encyclopedia of Witchcraft, it's in ancient Rome, it's in pre christian Rome, it's not a friendly, it's not a witchcraft friendly place.

[00:40:49] It's a really misogynist place. Women are the property of their fathers, their husbands and there is a point associated with the cult of [00:41:00] Dionysus, with the maenads. There is a witch hunt there and there are theories and who knows? There are theories that what we consider that the stereotypical European witch derives from Maynads who escaped and went into the forest and back then Europe was, continental Europe was almost entirely covered by forest.

[00:41:23] Yeah. You wouldn't know it now, but yeah back then. And then. After,

[00:41:34] You start to see the first stirrings, 12th century, 13th century, and then you have this huge panic, 14th, 15th, 16th, and yes, the Inquisition, and very specifically the European Inquisition. What's very interesting in all these, in the parts of Europe where they have ethnic and religious minorities, they're If they have somebody else to pick on, they don't pick on witches.

[00:41:59] For example, the [00:42:00] Spanish Inquisition, it's not really, doesn't really care too much about witches. I, you

[00:42:04] Ashley: know, Yeah, it was more like Jewish people. They were like, get them out of

[00:42:07] Judika: here. They're going after Muslim people. They're going after people who they think are not sincere Christians. Yes. That, that, that is their obsession, if you're a witch, okay, we'll give you like a couple Hail Marys and go home, but the rest of Europe the regular inquisition, but also Martin Luther, when they have the Protestant reformation, he is really.

[00:42:32] Not friendly to the witches. No. There are just witch trials. It's like tides and waves. Yeah. Almost all of Europe. So you have these like the little forerunners in the 11th, 12th, 13th century. And then the last witch killings of the last legal witch killings. That's the thing, because there are people, there are still legal witch hunts now.

[00:42:57] Yeah. Yeah. Different parts [00:43:00] of the world. Yes, I would not bring your tarot cards to Saudi Arabia right now

[00:43:07] Not a good idea and and parts of I don't think it's legal in Rural India, but it happens. Also, not a good place to say. Oh, by the way, I'm a witch like People understand that word and very different there are in parts of Africa also, there are the witch camps where people who have escaped witch hunts have gone to seek refuge and people who are practicing traditional religions

[00:43:35] practices where women are in power. There's also stuff, you see just constant themes when medicine becomes when there's a legal system for it when you have to get a license, then the unlicensed, herbalists and midwives. And, so in Europe, like a woman couldn't get licensed.[00:44:00]

[00:44:00] So if she was gonna practice, she had to practice unlicensed. Yes. But if she practice un that mean it's it's a whole, like catch 20, what is it? Catch 21, catch 22. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:12] Ashley: one of those catches in the twenties. Yeah,

[00:44:14] Judika: yeah. If you don't have a choice but to do it this way, but to do it that way, you're gonna be a witch and it's gonna be illegal.

[00:44:22] It's not good. No. I would say parts of America today. And also reproductive rights when women want to have control of their own bodies and their own fertility. That is often just automatically labeled witchcraft.

[00:44:39] Ashley: Yeah, there's a lot of places and a lot of documented even, this even happened on Outlander everybody, I love Outlander this happened to Claire on Outlander, that she was like pretending to be a doctor and she would write into the local like pamphlet newspaper that they had and she was telling women how to like, what to do [00:45:00] if you don't want to get pregnant, and like when to not have your oh, if you get your period this time, wait a week don't have your, don't have sex at this point, so you don't get pregnant.

[00:45:07] And then all the men folk found out and they lost their minds. They kidnapped her and called her a witch. This also happened at a different time. They called her, poor Claire has been through a lot on Outlander. But anyway but yes, reproductive rights is one of, you see a lot of accounts A lot of in Europe documented accounts of people who were helping women, and they were usually women herbalists, who knew what the woman should take to abort a child, and then they were labeled a witch, and they were arrested

[00:45:39] and around the world to be a witch means a lot of different things, especially from my own experience in like Western African culture, there's like healers and there's like people who do traditional stuff and there's like good ones and bad ones and they have different names, but the good ones, it's oh, yeah, that's just like the person down the road or the lady who brings herbs and runs it on your [00:46:00] leg.

[00:46:00] Granny who heals us, right? Yeah. And then the witch is usually just somebody who either maybe does those things, but is mean or everybody just doesn't like that person's right. Yeah, so they call that person a witch and a lot of the times the other like you were talking about also before it we talked about granny women in Appalachia at one point on this podcast and that they were doing the same thing.

[00:46:27] They were just they were Rural around the world. It's all around the world They were rural healers in the Appalachian Mountains for families who couldn't afford or they couldn't even get to the doctor, like geographically, it was just

[00:46:40] Judika: too far, or maybe there was no doctor or there was

[00:46:43] Ashley: no doctor.

[00:46:43] And I remember, yeah, when I was reading about them, the doctors would charge them more, like so much where these a lot of the people up there. There were mountain people, a lot of them didn't have a ton of money, so the doctors would be like, Oh, plus my normal doctoring fee, I'm [00:47:00] charging you an extra, probably at that point it was like, 10, which now would be like 100.

[00:47:05] They're like, we're charging you an extra 100 because I have to come up the mountain and so forth. So people were like, what? So they had the local lady, it's also,

[00:47:13] Judika: even beyond that, there's this assumption that a doctor, That all doctors are sincere and they are, loving people who only want to heal everyone.

[00:47:24] But in fact, there are a lot of doctors and there's a whole history of, how, and the topic is too huge. How many doctors, have sterilized women after giving birth without telling them? How many, and the Romani culture and the Native American culture, black culture, all over, it's not a, it's not like an isolated thing.

[00:47:46] You, or doctors who don't respect their clients. Yes. And maybe you're happier going to someone who this, you think they're on your side and they want you to get better. [00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Ashley: Especially, I think, in In the United States, I know a lot of people I grew up in an area with a lot of Hispanic people and also when I was younger, grew up in an area with a lot of Chinese people and a lot of people went to their native doctor, even so if they had a problem, sometimes they'd go to a regular Western medicine doctor, but a lot of them would go to a Chinese herbalist or yeah, or yeah, it's great.

[00:48:28] Or I'm in the Hispanic communities. A lot of them just knew like a woman who like. knew what to do so and either it was like a supplement or that's what they use because it was more

[00:48:40] Judika: helpful for Them. I don't mean negative because there are you know, a ton of wonderful Self sacrificing physicians out there.

[00:48:48] Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So this is not all doctors But I mean it's physicians who are on the forefront of eugenics Physicians who you [00:49:00] know, Nazi doctors are scary things There, so there are a lot of scary stories with physicians. So I don't think I think depending, it depends where you come from and it depends who your people are.

[00:49:16] Are you from people who trust physicians because of course you trust them or do you come from a background where. Oh, maybe. That's certainly my background. I don't come from a trusting background. You have to, yes. Who are you? And what are you practicing?

[00:49:35] And how? How do you see me? Like, how patient? Am I worth saving? Or am I somebody you just want to? Am I just a test case?

[00:49:45] Ashley: It's so true. And it's so it's so scary. It can be very scary to think about. All that stuff, but I totally understand. I feel that way. Yeah, you do

[00:49:54] Judika: have, I think you do have to be aware of it.

[00:49:56] I think we're seeing, now with, with the [00:50:00] coronavirus where a lot of people think, Oh, it's gone away. It's over. It's not over. Yeah. And not all doctors are giving us the best advice.

[00:50:08] Ashley: Exactly. And I feel Yeah. And I feel that very much way about even I, I'm a black woman.

[00:50:14] And I'm like, when I think about it. Yeah. Maybe I might have a child and it makes me it panics me to hear all these stories and they're like, oh, one in four black women are like dying now because their doctors are just ignoring them. And it's so scary. And I also am not well, my mom's a nurse.

[00:50:31] So it was like, you need to be person

[00:50:33] Judika: not taking the patient seriously. Treating you like you're just You're not telling them the truth, or you're not...

[00:50:42] Ashley: And even they've done so many studies where they've found that at least, I know this for the Black community in America, that a lot of doctors literally perceived that Black women had a higher pain tolerance for some reason.

[00:50:56] Yeah, so it was like... So they don't have to take the [00:51:00] drugs. Yeah like, when a Black woman complained of pain, they were just like, ah... And they also found that they thought that they were more dramatic. So they were like, oh, they just wouldn't believe that because they thought they were just hysterical, women were so hysterical Like it's just

[00:51:16] Judika: oh, it's just madness.

[00:51:17] Yeah, it's a very scary thing

[00:51:19] Ashley: it is so

[00:51:21] Judika: the contradictory too, isn't it? Because the pain is higher and you're complaining about pain. It must be really bad

[00:51:30] Ashley: Yeah It's very weird.

[00:51:35] Judika: You should be bringing the painkillers,

[00:51:37] Ashley: yeah. It's crazy. It's very weird. Yeah. Some commonalities around people, and I'll just go through this quick, but commonalities around people who say they are witches are really, there's a lot of people who just like the aesthetic, and that's fine, you can like the aesthetic, it's okay, it's fine.

[00:51:55] And

[00:51:56] Judika: sometimes let's think that's the gateway in, the aesthetic, it

[00:51:59] Ashley: is, [00:52:00] it is, and that's totally fine. We love witchy aesthetic. People who are, like, practitioners of any sort of magic, they usually have a very strong connection with nature they usually want to have a connection with their ancestors and otherworldly spirits they usually are really, like we talked about before, we're really into cleansing stuff constantly, we're really into that we use herbs, we use cards, we use rocks, It's shiny, beautiful rocks and we use all sorts of fun stuff metal,

[00:52:32] Judika: Metal cleansing.

[00:52:33] I love metal.

[00:52:34] Ashley: Yeah. Metal is great. I love it. I love it. Yes. I love metal. I also love when I'm like feeling a little lazy. Some salt.

[00:52:43] Judika: Yeah. Yeah. Salt is the best. Salt is what you need. When you only have five minutes or 10 minutes and you're so tired. And salt is the

[00:52:52] Ashley: best. I know I love a good like salt in the shower.

[00:52:56] I'm just cleansing myself and thinking about washing the day away. [00:53:00] I love that. So those are some things we have very nice witchcraft talk. Ooh, that was fun.

[00:53:04] Judika: So animals too. I think even who are afraid of animals, just images of animals or animal spirits, or yes, animal thoughts. And those of us who are not afraid like the actual animals, but the, the other living beings of our world.

[00:53:22] Yes. And the animals and the trees.

[00:53:24] Ashley: Yeah, we're usually really into that. We love all that stuff. And usually people who are into like different types of magic or things like that, we usually recognize the... Living part and the spirit in everything that we touch, and it makes, I always say my friend was like, man, my friend who was in my shamanic practitioner program, she says it's once you pop the fundum stop because once you learn all this stuff, you're like, how could I ever live without it?

[00:53:50] It makes the world seem so more alive. It's

[00:53:54] Judika: like one scene you can't unsee.

[00:53:57] Ashley: Yeah, you can't, you never can. And Your [00:54:00] life is never the same and you just there's beauty in everything like no matter how much pain there is But yeah, I could go on about that forever Yeah, I love that. Okay, so we'll get to our last this all worked out because our last I didn't want to go crazy with our last section because there's too much to go into But we're gonna since we're doing a witchy theme today.

[00:54:22] We're talking about A witch that I don't think gets enough credit. So this is our story time section where I'm going to tell you about her. We're talking about Cersei. I feel like Cersei doesn't get a lot of credit. Because we've talked about, yeah, we've talked about Hecate. I love Hecate, don't get me wrong.

[00:54:37] We love her. But Cersei doesn't get a lot of credit. And she's out here turning everybody into animals. Speaking of animals.

[00:54:44] Judika: And selectively. I know. So she picks the right animals for the right person.

[00:54:49] Ashley: Exactly. Which is wild to me. Seriously? Who is Circe? And I got a lot of this from your book, Judica.

[00:54:55] So if you hear words that are familiar, it's because it's from her book.[00:55:00] This part, I think, though, is from Wikipedia. Circe is an enchantress and a minor goddess in Greek mythology and religion. In most accounts, Circe is described as the daughter of the sun god Helios and the oceanid nymph, Percy.

[00:55:15] Circe is renowned for her vast knowledge of potions and herbs. And through the use of her magic wand and staff, she would transform her enemies or anybody who pissed her off into animals. And like Judica just said, it would be like the appropriate animal.

[00:55:28] So it's she feels like you're acting like a horse's ass, she's turning you into a horse. Whatever,

[00:55:34] Judika: She thinks. Yeah, the lions, if you have a lion soul. Which is better than being,

[00:55:40] Ashley: yeah, I know I would just turn everyone to a pig probably because I'm not that creative She's one of the most powerful witch goddesses in Greek mythology and In my opinion, she's a little bit. I'm not she's like on the scale She's related to Hecate in a way like they're like distant [00:56:00] cousins But she's I feel like even Hecate's a little chiller Like she, I'm talking about how can you guys know what I'm talking about?

[00:56:05] She's calmer than Cersei. She's not like as aggressive. There are a few different female sorcerers. Cersei, I can't do this. Fesanthony? Fesanthony? Okay. And Medea. P A S I P H A E?

[00:56:23] Judika: Pasiphae.

[00:56:24] Ashley: Pasiphae,

[00:56:25] Judika: sorry. Oh, yes, I was just thinking about her. Because there is that family of Circe and Hecate.

[00:56:33] But Pasiphae is interesting.

[00:56:35] Ashley: We're gonna have to do her on a different episode. That's gonna be another one. Yeah. Look her

[00:56:38] Judika: up in my book. You'll see. Okay, I'm gonna do that tonight. The book, she has the not so PG 13 stuff about pass pay.

[00:56:45] Ashley: Ooh, I can't wait. Okay. I'm gonna read it on pass pay. I'm excited.

[00:56:50] I'm gonna do that tonight. Yeah. Cersei is also regarded she's regarded out of the three of them as the most powerful. And she's able to concoct [00:57:00] really powerful potions. She's also said to have the power to hide the sun and the moon as she wanted. The sun is her dad. So all she has to do is be like, Dad, I need you to hide so people see how powerful you I am.

[00:57:16] So she was also known, which is this is also a really big deal. She's also known to be able to call upon the assistance of like darker deities like Nyx. We talked about Nyx before and how Nyx is a badass because even Zeus is afraid of her. So Nyx, chaos. Yeah, she can call upon chaos. That's like a pretty big deal.

[00:57:38] One of the best the way people really know Circe is from The Odyssey. She's in Homer's Odyssey, and when Odysseus, who's the main character of The Odyssey, he visits her island, she owns an island, yeah, she's that rich, and she has a big old stone mansion there, pretty cool. So he visits the island of A E, I can [00:58:00] never say it, sorry.

[00:58:01] But it's A E... A E A, and sometimes it's A I

[00:58:06] Judika: A I A. Because they're transliterating from Greek.

[00:58:09] Ashley: Yeah, it's a lot. So we're just going to

[00:58:12] Judika: call it... The Greeks thought that vowels had power. Wow. They knew that Ireland is all vowels. I didn't know that. Oh, wow. Because different, like certain, some people think odd numbers are more powerful.

[00:58:26] Yes. Even, or this is more power, this animal. But for the ancient Greeks, they thought vowels had power.

[00:58:33] Ashley: Interesting. Okay. I love this. I love this one. I like this podcast. Let me learn something. She she gets a hold of Odysseus crew. They land there, and then she changes most of them into pigs. Oh my god, that's not good.

[00:58:49] Yeah, she's okay, here's the thing. This is what happened, okay? So she was there, And Odysseus came with his men, and she turned them into pigs, but what happened was, [00:59:00] before he I don't know the whole story, guys, I didn't want to make it a long thing, so I'm just telling you the cliff notes. Before he got there, Hermes Hermes with the wings?

[00:59:08] Hermes was like, Hey, listen, I used to date Cersei, and she's not playing around, so it's So you better be nice to her. Or else she's going to turn you into a pig, and also, I'm going to give you this magical herb antidote, so keep it in your pocket. If she gets mad, she's turning you into an animal.

[00:59:27] And he's do not reject her if she tries to hit on you. She's all about it. So when they get there, Odysseus is like super nice to her, so she doesn't turn him into a pig. Then they became lovers, and he just stayed there for a year and had a kid with her. But then he like abandons her later on it's like a whole thing.

[00:59:42] We'll talk about it later so she also teaches odysseus a whole bunch of magic Also teaches him how to go to Hades and interview dead people and come back. Okay. I guess it's a skill that's good to have in your back pocket. And he probably wouldn't have made it home without her magic and him loving to, [01:00:00] her teaching him all this magic.

[01:00:02] She's apparently eternally beautiful and her eyes are literally shining like the sun because her dad is literally the sun. She also fell in love with this other guy. She falls in love a lot and she's One of those girls who like, once she breaks up with somebody, she's not gonna let you go be happy quickly she's gonna punish you.

[01:00:22] You hurt her feelings. But this one, I didn't like this because she's not always a girl's girl because she fell in love with this. Guy named Gullkiss. He's a minor sea deity, but Gullkiss didn't know didn't really love her at all He loved this Silica who was a beautiful maiden and then Cersei found out that Silica was the apple of Gullkiss's eye and she was pissed So she turned the water that Silica bathed in into poison and it made her a sea monster I was like, that's not nice.

[01:00:54] That's, she's not a girl's girl sometimes. I think the love just makes her so crazy. So I'm gonna forgive her. But [01:01:00] she does this a couple other, not exactly the same thing, but she turns a guy into a woodpecker one time. She turns a bunch of dudes into lions, like Judica said before, turns them into pigs.

[01:01:09] Whatever she sees fit, that's her thing. She was venerated. She had her own like kind of group her own cult She was venerated in Mount Circeo in the Italian Peninsula, which took its name after her because of the legends it said that there's still a shrine in that small town or there was at least for a long time and There's a bowl kept there that people think did belong to Odysseus and She was also probably venerated along with Venus, Venus is like the Roman version but they think they found some places in, even in Italy where she is venerated alongside of Venus, that's the quick and dirty version about Cersei. We're gonna get more into her stories at a later date, because it's pretty wild what she was doing out here with Jason and Medea. There's a lot going on. [01:02:00] That's what I wanted to tell you about Cersei. She's a witch that she doesn't get enough credit for how badass she is, even though sometimes she was doing too much.

[01:02:06] And like I said, I got most of this from Chewco's book. I love how I'm talking to you about what you wrote about

[01:02:17] Judika: me. No, that's from the Wikipedia. I wouldn't call her a minor goddess. Because, first of all, she's not going to like it.

[01:02:25] Ashley: But yeah, I probably should have taken that back. Sorry,

[01:02:29] Judika: Circe. I don't speak Greek. I don't speak Greek, so I'm getting this from other sources. But there is, I read some place that the word that is used to describe Circe, it describes her...

[01:02:42] In the same language that they describe the other Greek goddesses like Hera.

[01:02:47] Ashley: Oh okay. She's just not a Wikipedia thing.

[01:02:50] Judika: No. I think that's what people think. Because they think that only the ones on Mount Olympus are the Greek goddesses. But, we got some Greek [01:03:00] goddesses who choose to live on Earth, too.

[01:03:02] Ashley: Yeah. When it comes to Greek goddesses, now what I'm like, I've been... Doing a couple different ones. I think we need to elevate Circe and I think we need to elevate Nyx because I'm like With the Nyx, they're badasses like yeah, we don't talk about them enough I'm glad Hecate's up with us because she deserves it But let's get the other ones like we talk about Zeus all the time like Aphrodite's fine.

[01:03:25] Don't get me wrong. She's great. But Come on.

[01:03:29] Judika: Yeah. There's other good ones too. I think the witchy goddesses sometimes are just a little bit disrespectful because they're witchy. Yeah, that's the power.

[01:03:40] Ashley: Exactly. They don't take any nonsense at all. Yeah, no, you're turning into a pig

[01:03:47] Judika: She really is the heroine of the Odyssey because without her I mean he'd still be like shipwrecked on some island You know teaches them how to get home

[01:03:58] Ashley: and I don't remember I remember [01:04:00] reading like parts of the Odyssey when I was in school and I remember I don't remember exactly the parts I can't tell you all I remember is not liking Odysseus I thought he was a jerk.

[01:04:09] Judika: He's not, he's really not that likable. Yeah.

[01:04:13] Ashley: This guy sucks. Why'd they write

[01:04:14] Judika: the whole book about him? There's a television adaptation. I want to say Bernadette Peters plays Circe. Really? Oh my god. Yeah, it's good. I'll find it. There's Circe, there's Calypso. And I have to dance up in Calypso's island afterwards.

[01:04:38] And I love Calypso, too.

[01:04:39] Ashley: I like Calypso. I remember liking Calypso, thinking she was cool.

[01:04:45] Judika: Yeah, I can't remember the, they're both in this TV, and they're just both great. I want to say, Bernadette Peters is Circe, and I cannot remember, she was Miss America, and then there was a scandal, she had to [01:05:00] resign. Oh,

[01:05:00] Ashley: Vanessa Williams?

[01:05:02] She's

[01:05:02] Judika: Calypso. Oh, I'm gonna find it.

[01:05:06] Ashley: She's great. I'm gonna find that and put it in the show notes. For sure. This brings us to the end of our podcast today. Oh, that

[01:05:14] Judika: went so fast. Thank

[01:05:15] Ashley: you. I know, right? Oh gosh, it's fun. Time flies when you're having so much fun. Judica, do you want to just tell people if they can find you anywhere on the internet or if they're, like, you're doing events, where's the best place to find out what you're doing?

[01:05:28] Judika: I should tell you my website, but it's down and I haven't had a chance to fix it yet. So one of these days, which is my name, judicaillis. com, and one of these days it will be back up. So depending on when you're listening to this, but I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram and... I'm on Twitter.

[01:05:45] I don't know how much longer that's gonna last, but today I'm on Twitter. But Facebook and Instagram are probably the best places to find me. I'm doing two events in the fall. I'd like to teach some virtual classes in [01:06:00] 2024. That's my plan. To start teaching some smaller, not expensive, virtual classes. When I do events with a lot of people, like the two events I'm doing...

[01:06:12] in the fall. It's not just my event. It's it's a whole weekend with a lot of different and great speakers, wonderful speakers. And it'll be archived at least for a while. There's one in October, there's one in November, and then we'll see what I'm teaching next year. And thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[01:06:31] Oh,

[01:06:31] Ashley: yes. Thank you. This has been a pleasure. Again, I've Been fangirling this whole time. I'm so excited to talk to you. Okay Yeah yay, okay So I just want to thank you judica again, and I want to thank everybody for listening. Thank you guys so much I really appreciate it again this is dying with the divine and you can listen to it on insta you can listen to it wherever you find your podcast.

[01:06:54] It's free and we can follow us on instagram facebook tiktok you could give us a [01:07:00] rating or a Review that's always super helpful And if you want to email me and tell me anything if you have any suggestions or you have a comment about what we talked About any i'm always up for extra information everybody if I said something you're like, oh, I wish you would mention this Tell me and i'll mention it the next episode.

[01:07:17] I promise also, if you wanna follow me, Ashley, I'm Sankofa Hs on Instagram and Sankofa Healing Sanctuary on Facebook. Sankofa hs is S-A-N-K-O-F-A-H-S. And thank you everybody for listening. And tune in next week for another fun episode and I'll see you all later.

[01:07:38] Bye.